William Williams' in Wales...Is he a lost cause?

[alllegs]

Hi everyone,

I had totally given up on locating my great great grandfather but after reading someone elses post I have renewed enthusiasm.

This is all I know;

1891 census (I believe this is him anyway....)

3 Clarendon Street, Normanby, Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire

RG12/4017 folio 4 page 1

Residing in the house of John Clark

William Williams, border, 28, single, shearman, born Wales

Also in the household is his future wife

Jane Thomas, servant, 18, domestic servant, born Witton Park, Durham

The next installment of his life is his marriage certificate;

28th November 1891 at Middlesbrough Register Office

William Williams, 25, bachelor, Iron Worker, of 50 Wood Street, Grangetown, Eston, father = James Williams, general labourer.
married
Jane Thomas, 19, spinster, of 50 Wood Street, Grangetown, Eston, father = John Thomas (deceased), craneman.

Both signed their own names and the witnesses were Thomas Lewis and Williams Jackson.

Then the birth of 2 of his daughters, Margaret and Martha Jane in 1892 and 1894.

Then his death on October 20th 1895 at 41 Stayplton Street, Grangetown, Eston, William Williams, male, 32, a steelworks shearman, of phthesis (4 mths), his brother in law was present at his death.

This his 3rd daughter, Rachel was born in 1895.

His wife Jane went on to die in the workhouse in 1902 of a cerebral haemorrhage,, in the occ box it is stated she was the widow of William Williams of Kendal Street, Middlesbrough and I can only find 1 daughter, Margaret on the 1901 census.  I have all previous info of Jane and her Welsh roots!

However, I cannot find anything prior to 1891, obviously William Williams is a fairly common name, and with a birth place of Wales doesn't give me much to work with.

Has anyone got any idea of what I can do to find more info about Wm prior to 1891?

Am I flogging a dead horse with this one?

Thanks in anticipation
Legs
xxxx

[yonderpeasant]

what was the name of the brother in law? Does this give us the sisters name?Clutching at straws!

[alllegs]

It was his wife's brother (sorry should have made that clearer)  

[yonderpeasant]

Take a look at James Williams lodging with Rachel Thomas Janes mother in 1891 RG12/4016/47/5


He has father James Williams and  mother Amy and Brother William Williams they are Steelworkers born Monmouth Nantyglo which is part of Aberstruth acording to Genuki

They are at Rawmarsh Yorks in 1881RG11/4679/41/36 without James junior 

James is with them in 1861 at Aberstruth Monmouth RG93997/216/37

I am blowed if I can see them in 1871 yet.
see what you think anyway

[osprey]

this looks like the same family in 1871 despite the mother's name

Lions(?) Row, Nantyglo, Aberystruth RG10/5316 folio 71 pg 49
Ann Williams head mar 43
Thomas son 21 puddler
Henry son 19 puddler
James son 16 puddler
Martha dau 12
William son 10
John son 4
all born Nantyglo

James & Amy are with married daughter Martha in 1891 in Rawmarsh RG12/3852 folio 83 pg 23, and James still with her in 1901 RG13/4399 folio 24 pg 40

 

[alllegs]

Hi there,

That James Williams later marries Janes mother Rachel after John (Jane's father died in a crane accident at the mine) and they have a daughter called Amy.

All the Thomas' come from Nantyglo.  I can't find a suitable William James combo on the 1971 in Nantyglo though.  Although if that comes under Aberystruth (which I wasn't aware, my knowlegde of Wales is not great!) then I guess it is a definate possible

I have located 9 possible combos in 1871 though, all in Wales, ages vary from born 1862 - 1866 to cater for the age difference from the 91 census (29) to the 1891 marriage cert (25), only 9!!!

William Williams, father James (works in tin plate works) , mother Ann abt 1865  Llanguith, Glamorgan, Wales Son  Llanelly, Carmarthenshire  or

William Williams, father James (ag lab), mother Anna abt 1865  Penboyr, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son  Penboyr, Carmarthenshire.

William Williams, father James (labourer), mother Ellen abt 1866  Llanbedr Goch, Anglesey, Wales Son  Llanbedr Goch, Anglesey

William Williams, father James (ag lab), mother Hannah abt 1866  Llanstephan, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son  Llanstephan, Carmarthenshire

William Williams, father James (puddler), mother Elizabeth abt 1864  Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales Son  Trevethin, Monmouthshire

William Williams, father James (labourer, land 10 area), mother Jane (transcirbed as James) abt 1863  Llanwinio, Carmarthenshire, Wales Son  Tre Lech AR Bettws, Carmarthenshire

William H Williams, father James (master builder), mother Elizabeth abt 1865  Monmouthshire, Wales Son  Monmouth, Monmouthshire

William Williams, father James (joiner), mother Alice abt 1862  Saltney, Flintshire, Wales Son  Saltney, Flintshire

William Williams, father James (bargeman), mother Anne abt 1862  Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales Son  Llangyfelach, Glamorgan

There are a handful without fathers, with aunts/uncles/grandparents though, I guess he could be one of those..... (knowing my luck he will be!)

[alllegs]

I'm slightly confused...(it doesn't take much!)

The family Osprey has transcribed, am I right in thinking that James (the 21  yr old son) is the James lodging with Rachel Thomas in 1891 who she later marries? If so is he the father of my William? I notice he has a brother called William, or is the brother the one who marries Jane (Rachel's daughter)?  Why the heck have thay all got the same name....?  How can it be proved one way or the other?

But if James is married to Amy in 1891 then that obviously cannot be the James lodging with Rachel Thomas?

Blimey I can't see the wood for the trees here.  I am utterley befuddled.  I apologise if I have got it all totally wrong, I think not getting home til 2am on a sat night has rather addled my brain!

Totally lost it, I don't even understand what I have written now! HELP!!!!!

Thank you for bearing with me!
Legs
xxxx

[osprey]

Sorry to confuse.   
The family that Yonderpeasant found has wife/mother Amy. On the 1871 census she is Ann, but the children's names are correct and ages within allowable ranges.

It's James senior & wife Amy, living with daughter Martha in 1891, James the son who married Rachel.

As for proving it, well, um...      Marriage cert for Martha to Isaac Jepson to check occupation of James - june qtr 1880 Sheffield vol 9c pg 480? Marriage cert for James?
Finding William's birth cert in Bedwellty won't be easy, or it might be Abergavenny. The registration district of Bedwellty started on 1/7/1861 - prior to that Abergavenny and needless to say several possibles. You could try the local offices - Blaenau Gwent, I think ....

[alllegs]

Thank you Osprey,

It's not you confusing me! I'm just generally confused!

So we think that James, son of James and Amy/Ann, married Rachel, they had a daughter called Amy.  I can see that is a definate possible.

And their son William married Jane?  Am I right there?

But how do I know that that William IS the same one who married Jane?

I guess both James and William's ages fit from the 1871, James born 1855 and William born 1961 then the 1901 for James, born 1855 and the 1891 for William born 1863.

Marriage for James Williams and Rachel Thomas, Middlesbrough, September 1894, 9d 924.  After Amy was born!  I have emailed the RO to check details of James and Rachel.

I'm still not sure about it all though...

Legs
xxxx