Author Topic: Taylor or Smith  (Read 30159 times)

Offline nightnurse51

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #54 on: Saturday 06 December 08 11:45 GMT (UK) »
Hello Cathay
I have to go out for half an hour I will give details when I get back.
Carol x
Wolfe in Kent and America  Australia and New Zealand (Found)
Bullen. in Berks, Stockwell London and New York
Mills in Croydon & Mitcham Gypsy based
Coopers from Croydon, Norwood
THompson  Croydon & Mitcham and Alnwick/ Northumberland
Green in Croydon and Peckham Camberwell
Reed in Peckham could originate in Ireland
Hunt Bushey Herts walworth Peckham  Croydon, Mitcham Gypsy based
Jessop in and around Kent
Taylors Croydon originate from Nottinghill and Acton
Gardner Mitcham

Offline cathayb

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #55 on: Saturday 06 December 08 17:46 GMT (UK) »
send the details carol.a few folk are already interested.
birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country

Offline cathayb

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #56 on: Sunday 07 December 08 16:28 GMT (UK) »
carol gonna need details soon if i am going to do bird?hope to take in the other families mentioned aswell so far on this thread.can you contact by late sunday night?before if yoiu can or i will have to thin of something else to scavenage forcathayb
birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country

Offline smileyface471686

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #57 on: Monday 08 December 08 23:46 GMT (UK) »
Athaliah Taylor married Joshua Cooper, Matty Coopers son. They had two children that i know of, William Cooper and Selina Cooper. Joshua died young and then Athaliah 'married' Sam Smith, son of Perron Smith (he being son of Elijah Smith and Sophia Chilcott, who used to travel around with Mattys parents) and Elizabeth Smith (dau of Lol White and Lavinia Smith) She wasnt the widow of Joshua Taylor, but Joshua Cooper, but because she reverted to her maiden name which we all know are interchangable anyway with our gypsy ancestors, this is where you are all getting confused. There are some bits about Sam Smith and Athaliah being the widow of Joshua Cooper in Charles Godfrey Lelands papers, if i can find the right pieces will post them.
The Sam Cooper and Annie Shepherd you are talking about are my grandfather Tom Coopers brother and sister in law. Their father was Samuel Cooper, son of Matty and therefore brother of Joshua Cooper.


Offline smileyface471686

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #58 on: Tuesday 09 December 08 01:14 GMT (UK) »
Heres a few pieces from The Gypsies by Charles Godfrey Leland about Joshua Cooper, Athalia Cooper, and Sam Smith and Athalia. Its out of copyright so am cutting and pasting.

Sam Smith was always known on the roads as Fighting Sam.  Years have
passed, and when I have asked after him I have always heard that he was
either in prison or had just been let out.  Once it happened that, during
a fight with a Gorgio, the Gorgio's watch disappeared, and Sam was
arrested under suspicion of having got up the fight in order that the
watch might disappear.  All of his friends declared his innocence.  The
next trouble was for _chorin a gry_, or stealing a horse, and so was the
next, and so on.  As horse-stealing is not a crime, but only "rough
gambling," on the roads, nobody defended him on these counts.  He was, so
far as this went, only a sporting character.  When his wife died he
married Athalia, the widow of Joshua Cooper, a gypsy, of whom I shall
speak anon.  I always liked Sam.  Among the travelers, he was always
spoken of as genteel, owing to the fact, that whatever the state of his
wardrobe might be, he always wore about his neck an immaculate white
woolen scarf, and on _jours de fete_, such as horse-races, sported a
_boro stardi_, or chimney-pot hat.  O my friend, Colonel Dash, of the
club!  Change but the name, this fable is of thee!

"There's to be a _walgoro_, _kaliko i sala_--a fair to-morrow morning, at
Cobham," said Sam, as he departed.

"All right.  We'll be there."

As we approached the cock-shy, where sticks were cast at cocoa-nuts, a
young gypsy _chai_, whom I learned to know in after-days as Athalia
Cooper, asked me to buy some sticks.  A penny a throw, all the cocoa-nuts
I could hit to be my own.  I declined; she became urgent, jolly, riotous,
insistive.  I endured it well, for I held the winning cards.  _Qui minus
propere_, _minus prospere_.  And then, as her voice rose _crescendo_ into
a bawl, so that all the Romanys around laughed aloud to see the green
Gorgio so chaffed and bothered, I bent me low, and whispered softly in
her ear a single monosyllable.

Why are all those sticks dropped so suddenly?  Why does Athalia in a
second become sober, and stand up staring at me, all her chaff and
urgency forgotten.  Quite polite and earnest now.  But there is joy
behind in her heart.  This _is_ a game, a jolly game, and no mistake.
And uplifting her voice again, as the voice of one who findeth an
exceeding great treasure even in the wilderness, she cried aloud,--"_It's
a Romany rye_!"

The spiciest and saltest and rosiest of Sir Patrick's own stories, told
after dinner over his own old port to a special conventicle of clergymen
about town, was never received with such a roar of delight as that cry of
Athalia's was by the Romany clan.  Up went three sheers at the find;
further afield went the shout proclaiming the discovery of an
aristocratic stranger of their race, a _rye_, who was to them as
wheat,--a gypsy gentleman.  Neglecting business, they threw down their
sticks, and left their cocoanuts to grin in solitude; the _dyes_ turned
aside from fortune-telling to see what strange fortune had sent such a
visitor.  In ten minutes Sir Patrick and I were surrounded by such a
circle of sudden admirers and vehement applauders, as it seldom happens
to any mortal to acquire--out of Ireland--at such exceedingly short
notice and on such easy terms.

They were not particular as to what sort of a gypsy I was, or where I
came from, or any nonsense of that sort, you know.  It was about
_cerevisia vincit omnia_, or the beery time of day with them, and they
cared not for anything.  I was extremely welcome; in short, there was
poetry in me.  I had come down on them by a way that was dark and a trick
that was vain, in the path of mystery, and dropped on Athalia and picked
her up.  It was gypsily done and very creditable to me, and even Sir
Patrick was regarded as one to be honored as an accomplice.  It is a
charming novelty in every life to have the better class of one's own kind
come into it, and nobody feels so keenly as a jolly Romany that _jucundum
nihil est nisi quod ref icit varietas_--naught pleases us without
variety.

Then and there I drew to me the first threads of what became in
after-days a strange and varied skein of humanity.  There was the Thames
upon a holiday.  Now I look back to it, I ask, _Ubi sunt_?  (Where are
they all?)  Joshua Cooper, as good and earnest a Rom as ever lived, in
his grave, with more than one of those who made my acquaintance by
hurrahing for me.  Some in America, some wandering wide.  Yet there by
Weybridge still the Thames runs on.




Offline nightnurse51

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #59 on: Tuesday 09 December 08 01:53 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Smiley face,
Thats really interesting, and I appreciate you posting it.
I now ask myself is my Alfred Taylor and Daniel Cooper to Joshua Cooper and Alathia Taylor or not.
I am sending for a birth cert as we speak a Alfred James Taylor registered in Kensington in the Sept qtr of 1874.
Why do I chose that one, intuition, Alfred was meant to be born in Kingston, he could have been registered in Wandsworth, Lambeth, camberwell and there are some registrations of a Alfred James in each of them. But most of the family were in Notting hill (Notting dale) or Acton for a number of years so I plump for Kensington which was the registration district of the time.
I just wish another rellie of one of Alfreds children could be looking at this and say they actually know his birthday, maybe tell me when and where he died even.
Alfred had 11 children that I know about, so someone somewhere must have either his death records or his birth record.
I have Flora his wifes record her birth cert  and a bmd record she died in 1970 Croydon.
Get back to you as soon as I know anything
Wolfe in Kent and America  Australia and New Zealand (Found)
Bullen. in Berks, Stockwell London and New York
Mills in Croydon & Mitcham Gypsy based
Coopers from Croydon, Norwood
THompson  Croydon & Mitcham and Alnwick/ Northumberland
Green in Croydon and Peckham Camberwell
Reed in Peckham could originate in Ireland
Hunt Bushey Herts walworth Peckham  Croydon, Mitcham Gypsy based
Jessop in and around Kent
Taylors Croydon originate from Nottinghill and Acton
Gardner Mitcham

Offline cathayb

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #60 on: Tuesday 09 December 08 13:33 GMT (UK) »
View the reply at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=346831.new;topicseen#new
page 3 now and we have just got to the right bird family and the rest from here.please join in now we should get the answersits in the scavenger hunt this week!!cathayb
birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country

Offline ladyinspain

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #61 on: Thursday 25 December 08 00:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi. My 4xGrt Grandfather was Plato Taylor. I have been researching since I discovered my Gypsy links. I remember, as a child in the 1950s/60s, my brother and I being taken to the fair at Wansted Flats and given free rides while my parents went into a caravan to see Great Aunt Lizzie. When my brother was about 12, he was taken into a caravan (Idon't know why), but at the time I was more interested in the free rides and goodies I was given to occupy me. Auntie Lila and Uncle George had the boat swings. I have started a tree and have 6 generations with info I got from censii.
Any help to you?
ladyinspain

Offline Harris in Essex

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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 25 December 08 22:40 GMT (UK) »
 :D
Hi Ladyinspain

I am connected to Plato through my Gt grandfather's sister Elizabeth Harris and would be happy to share information. My email is email address removed by moderator - please use the secure Rootschat personal message system to exchange personal email addresses - thankyou
Brassett;Brasted;Harris;Webb;Amos;Humphreys; Trout;Taylor

Essex, Wanstead, Loughton;Southminster; Ongar; great Burstead;Billericay