TREASE/TRAIES continued...

[deb usa]

I knew it ... I am hooked again LOL 

filling in som gaps for Bob's site;

re;
Samuel Traies s/o John Traies and Jane Holmes = Mary Ann Elston
Bob has 1861; 1871 and 1901 missing;

1861...transcribed as FRAIES
Park St,
Samuel Traies head mar 29 tailor b Crediton
Mary Ann wife 30 formerly a servant b Sandford
??well  Elston visitor 2 b Upton Hellions
 RG9/1472 53 25

1871
Stanberry's??  Court , High st, Crediton
Samuel 39, tailor and Mary Ann 41 Traies are still together and have a lodger, David Daniels widower, currier b Wales, Carmitheshire(sic)

1901... Transcribed as TRAVES
Vennors ?? Crt
Crediton
Samuel Traies head mar 73 tailor own account at home b Crediton
Marian (sic) wife 73 b sandford
RG13/2129 28 11

deb

[kerryb]

Thanks Deb, sterling work as always and do you think if there was a prize for the most mistranscribed surname, Traies would be in with a chance 

Kerry

[gardenerbob]

Deb,

Brilliant. No wonder attempts to find the 1841 William Traies census return had failed prior to you getting onto the case. Maria Downman's age is interesting. The IGI entry gives her birth as 5Jun1798 and baptism 25Dec1804 (C050901). Age 38 indicates that the IGI birth date given may be wrong.

The name TRAIES must be the most mistranscribed ever. The only good thing about it is that it is such an odd spelling that if iyou ever find the name TRAIES spelt that way it nearly always is a TRAIES - not a transcription of another name.

Rootschat tells me you've sent more while I am writing this. I'll post this now and get back to you on the later posts.

Many thanks,

Bob

[deb usa]

oooo Hi again

Bob .... found this ...you had mentioned that John Downman the artist had married Elizabeth Jackson and that no record of their marriage or children's baptisms exist ... I read the 'info' about John Downman, artist and noticed that one child was Isabella Chloe ....

LOOK:
IGI extracted
ISABELLA CHLOE DOWNMAN d/o John Downman and Elizabeth
born 7 JUL 1786
chr 2 JUL 1787   Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London


Okay ...supposedly Maria Richards Downman = William Traies is maybe/supposedly the daughter of John Downman, the famous artist. I have been working through and I beg to differ ...sorry  ...errr although she may be related to him somehow....


John Downman was siezed by the press gang in 1775 , they took him 'to sea' for 2 years ...he returned to find his wife and children in a garret in Cambridge (his wife and children died early). He continued to do his portraits . He moved with his family to St James Street in 1777 and stayed there til 1785 whenhe  moved to Leicester Field. During this time he had gone to Exeter and married Elizabeth Jackson in 1778 In 1795 he moved to Fitzroy Street and STAYED THERE until 1802 he was made A.R.A. in 1795

If he was in London during these years ...which has been well documented...How on earth could he be having Maria Richards Downman and all her siblings in Exeter from 1792 (Frances Ann Downman) to 1810 (Catherine Savery Downman)

So in 1795 , John Downman , the famed artist was made A R A , at THE SAME TIME Maria Richards Downman's sister was born in Exeter (Ann Allen Downman b  30 NOV 1795 , chr  25 DEC 1804 )

John Downman moved to various places and in 1804 to Picadilly, where he did a portrait of Nelson  ...he later moved to the country (Kent) but kept a room at Picadilly.

it seems that he only visited Exeter during these years as he was painting up in London!

hopefully this may help in finding out what Maria Richards Traies nee Downman's relationship is to the famous Downmans.



deb
 

[deb usa]

Hi again

I have found william Traies, the landscape artist b 1789 crediton in 1871

1871
Transcribed as William TRAVIS, b 1840
Parkerswell?? Cottage. , St leonard Exeter
William Mugford head mar 37 dairyman b Topsham
Emma wife 35 b exeter
William Traies boarder widr 81 Artist Landscape Painter b Crediton
sarah Mugford niece 11 domestic servant b topsham

deb

[gardenerbob]

Dear Deb,

I think the following are running certainties:-
1. Maria Richards Downman (wife of William Traies the artist) is the daughter of John Downman and Elizabeth Symons who married on the 4th April 1790 (IGI M50741)
2. Her father John Downman is NOT  John Downman RA the artist for reasons you so clearly state.
I think the following are highly probable but not absolute certainties:-
3. Her father John Downman is the son of Hugh Downman and Ann (nee Richards) christened at Exminster in 1747 (IGI C050541)
and the brother of Hugh Downman the Exeter poet and physician christened at Alphington in 1740 (IGI C050171)
4. John Downman RA is a cousin of her father (ie the son of a brother - currently unidentified – of the Hugh Downman who married Ann Richards in 1738 at St Kerrian Exeter (IGI M050951)

The queries I have relate to the biography of John Downman RA:-
5. It states that in 1778 he married a second time to Elizabeth Jackson daughter of the William Jackson the Exeter composer and musician, friend of Gainsborough etc.
6. The only marriage of John Downman RA I have found so far is his marriage to Mary Jackson a daughter of William Jackson the composer at St Peter Cathedral Exeter in 1806 (IGI M052451). This marriage is not referenced in the biography but it definitely refers to John Downman RA as is confirmed in this British History online link – note 125.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50576#fn125
The biography does state that he was with his cousin Hugh Downman the physician at Exeter in 1806.
7. Did John Downman RA marry two of William Jackson’s daughters or have the marriages been confused? Is it possible that the 1778 marriage was to another Elizabeth (not nee Jackson)? In my limited experience of family history research, I have come across the husband of one sister then going on to marry another twice so it is not all that uncommon. It is possible but it is strange that this third marriage is ignored in what we can see of this apparently well researched biography.

The baptism of daughter Isabella Chloe that you have found supports the statement that John had a wife Elizabeth in 1786/7 and a daughter of that name so possibly my worry that the biography is wrong about other things such as her maiden name is unfounded.

I know too little about William Traies to speculate on how he and Maria came to meet and whether John Downman who was considerably older played a part.
 
Regards,

Bob

[deb usa]

Hi everyone


Hi Bob ...i am all over the place ...I get onto your site at one place and end up looking for a whole different family on another place ..LOL 

Just noticed something ...from your site;

m. 4Feb1814 Crediton, Devon. John TRAIES and Ann POPHAM (IGI M050741)
?1841   Census Topsham  John Traies    50 MS    Yes (entry under TRAIER)
         Johnna Fowler    40    Yes

This is actually Samuel Traies (Traier) , his brother, that is with Johanna Fowler on the 1841


............................................................................

John Traies and Ann Popham had a son George Traies b 1814 Crediton = Martha HOLIGROVE

I noticed you didn't have George on the 1851 census ....LOl found him ...

1851
St Lukes, Finsbury
57 Golden Lane
Geoe Trees head unm 37 lab b Crediton
with other unrelated people living with him

HO107/1522 263 31

I know all of this is not helping much ... I just like to fill in gaps 

deb

[deb usa]

more gaps

George Traies 1814 crediton = Martha Holigrove

1861..transcribed as TRAVIS
St Lukes
Lambeth? Passage
George Traies head mar 47 b Devon Creader (sic)
Matha wife 43 b ditto
Ann Tremblen/tremblett?? wid visitor 73 b ditto
Elizabeth Traies dau 7 b st Lukes
George Traies son 5 b ditto
William Traies 4 b ditto
 RG9/209 53 19

added ...oops didn't mean to post ... had not finished finding them ...will add more later ...dinner time

deb

[gardenerbob]

Deb,

The census returns do more than just fill in gaps eg:-
The 1871 census for artist William Traies solves where he lived after all his children had died.
The 1841 census correction for John Traies indicates that his wife had died before then.
The 1851 census entry for George Traies references Golden Lane which rings a bell – the previous references are in fact burial records :-
Susan TREAYS buried at Golden Lane 12Srep1852 age 71 Address Caroline Place Goswell Street
Ann TRAIS buried 20th June 1852 Golden Lane age 84 so born about 1768 AAD 10 Cherry Tree Court White Cross Lane
But then Chery Tree Court rings a bell
1824   George Nangle junior and William Traies, Cherry Tree Court Aldersgate Street  London Silversmiths 1 Feb 1824 (Law Advertiser)
Possibly all coincidences but sometimes such things may resolve a mystery.

Bernice, Kerry
Re William Traies soldier have added transcription of the reverse side of the 1802 discharge document on the website. Appears William by then almost certainly living at Chelsea Hospital – if he had consumption unlikely he would have lived very long. He doesn’t seem to have married so this looks literally a dead end. Still worth looking up Chelsea records and 28th Foot Regiment records on off chance they might yield a nugget.

GardenerBob (not much gardening at moment)