TREASE/TRAIES continued...

[kerryb]

Deb - if I could I'd throw something at you for comments like that 

Just to let everyone know I have now added a page about James Traies to my website http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/james_traies.html in the hope that the more places we have the name mentioned the more likelihood of someone else finding it who might, just might have a bit of missing information for us.

Well I can live in hope 

Kerry

[kerryb]

Hi Bernice

Just found this thread on roots http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,315201.0/topicseen.html and the only family I could think to search for who came from Tunbridge Wells were Jane Traies who married William Roffe.  Found her and William's death register copies and some of the children.

It is free at the moment to use the site but not sure how long for.

Kerry

[gardenerbob]

Hi Kerry,

I've just had a look at the Hackney marriage register entries of 1818 and 1831 and although not a handwriting expert, my humble opinion is that the James Traies signatures were done by the same person - they both have an unusual distinctive downward stroke on the final s, they both have a similar upward slope of the surname - the capital T has an extra flourish ...

What do you think?

The 1818 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_as_mcert.jpg

The 1831 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_ml_mcert.jpg

If the consensus is that they are the same person, here are four possibilities:-
1. The 1818 bachelor status is a mistake - but both James and wife Ann could write their signatures and probably could read as well so they would surely have spotted it.
2. The bachelor status is true. He and Hannah never married so he was technically a bachelor and would not become a widower if she died.
3. The bachelor status is a deliberate falsehood.
4. James, husband of Hannah Traies is a different person.

Do you have the 1842 and 1857 marriage certificates to hand - could you  check whether   they bear the same signature?

I wonder if the answer to this will also explain why we can't find the baptisms?

Bob

[kerryb]

Hi bob

They certainly do look similar.  Hmm, I wonder whether Ann was Hannah and they didn't marry till 1818.  What a mystery

I hope its not the wrong one, otherwise we are back to the beginning 

kerry

[kerryb]

Hi Bob

Now I'm home ( I was at work this morning) I have printed out the two marriage certs and I have to agree there are simillarities in the T and the S and the J is quite flourished as well!

Of course the one piece of evidence or 5 pieces of evidence that will help us in this is to find the baptism records of James 1816, Henry 1819, Jane 1823, Hannah 1826 and Emma 1827.

You are right with your surmise of possible scenarios plus the one I suggested that Hannah and Ann are the same person but for some reason they didn't marry until 1818.

Another piece of evidence that would help is to find a death for Hannah and/or Ann presumably before 1831.

I'll scan the two marriage certs 1842 and 1857 and add them

Kerry

[kerryb]

Hmm now I've looked at the 1842 and 1857 scans I'm not sure they are the same James.

What do you think?  They look different to me

Kerry

[deb usa]

Hi Kerry and Bob

I tend to agree with you , Kerry.... the signatures do look very different. The downward stroke of the "S" of Traies on Bob's certs are totally different to your certs. To me it looks like signatures of an older man vs that of a younger man.

will relook

deb

[kerryb]

Hi Deb

So it could be the same person then, just later on in life, ie 1842  our James was 57 and 1857 he was  72 years old whereas in 1818 he was only 33.

Kerry

[deb usa]

I think it's the other way around.....the signatures of 1842 and 1857 look to be a younger man ,,,, if he was 72 in 1857 I would have thought the handwriting would have gone downhill ..

1842 and 1857 look like a confident, non-shaky signature ..."modern' cursive writing
1818 and 1831 looks like 'old fashioned' cursive

deb

added ... 1842 and 1857 ...the "a' going into the 'm' of James ...look the same