TREASE/TRAIES continued...

[samtraies]

Great effort Bob!  I wonder whether we'll ever find those elusive baptisms.  I noticed that you had also considered Paddington. St Mary, Paddington Green also seems like a good contender, from my (poor) map reading skills, I think its quite close to Bryanston Sqauare.

Re: the St Mary Abbotts indexes, do you think they relate to funerals?  They were listed as burial registers.  I wondered if that meant the church had responsibilty for their burial.  I have had contact with the archivist there, it might be time for another email to her.

The details for those (which were just handwritten records copied from the church records) are:

Martha Traies, 11th September 1842, age 48, Gravel Pits.
Art. Evans Traies, 22nd March 1846, 4 months, 2 Greyhound Row
Harriet Sar. Traies, 3rd March 1851, [looks like "birth"], Greyhound Row

Cheers
Sam

[oldmanriver]

Hi Bob and Sam

Thanks for your efforts.  I know from the limited experience I have had of searching the London registers what a difficult task it can be.

Regarding your question about are the churches of St Mary and St Leonard Bromley the same as St Mary, Stratford le Bow, no they are not (as I understand it).  The Church of St. Mary, Stratford le Bow is in Bow Road.  Registers for Baptisms 1538 - 1956, marriages 1539 - 1968 and burials 1538 - 1862 are in the LMA.  The church is sometimes just reffered to as Bow Church, but not to be confused with the church of Mary le Bow in the City and the origin of the well known Bow Bells of London.

You may like to look at the East of London FHS site, click on parishes at the side of the home page and you will see that  the parishes they cover include Stratford le Bow and Poplar.

To learn more about how the various parishes were formed and a history of the various churches in Hackney have a look at www.parishregister.com.  There is a lot of information on this site - just too much to take in.

By the way, Stratford le bow was on one side of the river, with Stratford Langthorne on the other.  They built a bridge called Bow Bridge to connect the two.  Stratford le Bow is sometimes called just Bow and Stratford Langthorne is usually called just Stratford!  So if you see Stratford written on its own don't think it means Stratford Le Bow.  But if you see Bow on its own it does mean Stratford Le Bow!!

Sam - before civil registration in 1837 deaths were not registered and each parish was responsible for its own burials.  Church records will only show burials not deaths.  Having said that some clergy gave more details than were actually required and chose to give the date of death as well.  In the same way, churches were only required to record baptisms not date of birth, although some clergy wrote both dates in their registers.

Bob - I've just remembered that the parish register site I mentioned earlier has a search facility for St Dunstan, Hackney.  I didn't find anything but searched in a bit of a rush and may have missed sometihing or the name of TRAIES may be there but spelt differently, which I didn't try.

Just think how excited we'll be if we do find something - it is a bit frustrating at the moment!

Best wishes

Bernice   

[oldmanriver]

Bob

It's Bernice again.  When I looked at Marylebone baptisms they were indexed but on a separate film.  Are you sure that there is not a separate film for burial indexes as well.  It must be a horrible task trawling through so many burials with no index.  If you look again it would be worth checking if there is a separate index film.

Bernice

[kerryb]

Frustrating is not the word for it Bernice 

I'm only sorry there's no registers I can look at but I'm not in London.  I'd search them all if I could, this family are teasing us.

Great efforts from Bob and Sam and I am sure eventually we will get a breakthrough 

Kerry

[gardenerbob]

I'll follow Bernice's suggestion when I revisit LMA and recheck for an index for St Marylebone burials. The fear I have with manual searches like that it is so easy to miss an entry. This register is huge and indexing by old manual methods would be a long job so the indexing job may have been simply left for later/never.

Re the comments on the Stratford Bow/Bow/Poplar ... St Mary register - my reading from studying the internet just now - see link below - is that 3 parishes merged  - see National Archives description below and the records are now held as  St Mary, St Leonard, and St Andrew and area is now called Bromley not Stratford or Bow or Poplar  :-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=074-p88mry1&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18
This description also refers to use of index X102/066 which is definitely the index I looked at. Unfortunately  I left this search until quite late, as I mistakenly thought the register was on IGI anyway, and to add to the confusion I did it in a hurry.  I marked my papers with M (marriages - which were the first entries on the microfilm) but I am fairly sure I took details from the baptisms index so I definitely need to redo this one. The National archives description is also confusing as to whether the baptisms for the period we need were on the index I looked at which adds to my uncertainty on this!
Regards,
Bob

[oldmanriver]

Hi Bob and all

When I checked the Index for baptisms in the Marylebone Index, I did so on a film ordered from the Library Catalogue of the LDS.  I thought I'd check if they did one for burials, but the only year they have is an index for burials is 1811, so that is not much good.  They do an index for baptisms for 1813 - 1827 which was the one I looked at.  They also have a marriage index for 1754 - 1875, but I did not order this index so have not seen it.  Having now looked at the LDS site, I agree with Bob, that the Marylebone burials are unlikely to have been indexed (except for the year 1811 done by the LDS)

Just a bit more about the history of the parishes - just in case it is of use.  I've been browsing a bit on the Internet, and think this is correct -

Bromley St Leonard was originally part of the large parish of
Stepney from which it split in 1536.  The parish church of St Leonard was St. Mary's.  Bromley St Leonard was sometimes called just Bromley and sometimes Bromley by Bow.  The name St. Leonard came from a 12th century convent that used to be there.  Bromley St Leonard was the original parish but as time went on Bromley had other churches and smaller parishes were formed.  St. Mary's the original parish church of Bromley St. Leonard was in the High Street.  This church was destroyed as a result of bombing and then the construction of Blackwall Tunnel.  In 1952 it united with St. Andrew's, Bromley (created in 1900) and in 1963 these two churches were united with St. Mary, Stratford Le Bow.  As they did not unite until 1963, I would have expected earlier records to be under the name of the original parish, but I may be wrong about this.

I know that West Surrey FHS do some useful guides to how the London and Middlesex area parishes were formed.  I got a good little map from them a few years ago which sets out the pre 1837 parishes and says when the parishes were formed.  I tried to print it out and send to the list as an attachment but I couldn't do it.  If anyone wants a copy, I could try sending it to your private e-mail address or it may be easier to photocopy it and post, but I would need an address for this which you may not like to give out on the list.  It is A3 size, so could be a bit large to e-mail.

Looking at the link to the National Archive Site that you gave in your message, it looks as if you looked at the right index for baptisms at the time in which we are interested.   I'd say you would expect to find baptisms indexed in X102/066 for the period Jan 1813 - Apr 1831.  It looks as if other years are also indexed on X102/066, so you want the look at the index to film X97/262.

Regarding the parish of Marylebone.  As well as the parish church there were Christchurch, Conway Road, Marylebone which dates from 1825, Holy Trinity Marylebone Road which dates from 1828, All Souls, Langham Place which dates from 1825 and finally St. Mary, Bryanstone Square which we know was close to the TRAIES family, but as it dates from 1825 is unlikely to help very much.

Bye for now

Bernice

[samtraies]

Hi

Steve went to the LMA yesterday and checked the St Mary Stratford Bow records for baptisms, and didn't find any "Traies".  The listing was only for St Mary, and didn't mention the other churches (Bromley St Leonard etcetera).  He checked the   records rather than the index (x97/262).
We can try and check some of these other East End churches too.

Cheers,
Sam

[oldmanriver]

Hi Sam and all

Thanks to Steve for checking the Records of St. Mary. Stratford le Bow.  Sorry he had no luck.

The River Lea seemed to be the boundary between Middlesex and Essex.  As there was a lot of boat building and shipping in the area, maybe James TRAIES thought he could use some of his knowledge as a tinplate worker in the shipping industry and make more money there, than he could from making articles in tin or brass and selling them in a shop.  Maybe this is why he decided at some stage to leave Marylebone and travel East.  But, for some reason things did not turn out as well as he had hoped and he moved West again - this is pure guesswork of course.

The parishes of pre 1837 adjoining the river Lea from North to South were St John, Hackney (1545), St. Mary, Stratford le Bow (1538) and St. Mary, Bromley St. Leonard (1622). 

Adjoining St Mary, Stratford Le bow and  St. Mary, Bromley St. Leonard were St Matthew, Bethnal Green (1746)and St. Dunstan, Stepney (1568).  Some smaller parishes were below these stretching down to the River Thames.

Moving west from St. Matthew, Bethnal Green comes St. Leonard Shoreditch  (1558).  This shares a boundary above with St. John, Hackney.

Marylebone is several parishes further west.  The oldest church is St. Marylebone (1668).  To the right of Marylebone is St Pancras (1660)  To the left of Marylebone is St. Mary. Paddington (1655)  St Mary Paddington, later became St James, but date of name change not known.  Below Marylebone and Paddington are St. George Hanover. Square (1725) St. Margaret, Westminster, plus others.  To the left of St. Mary. Paddington is St. Mary Abbots, Kensington (1539).  Below this and stretching down to the Thames is St. Luke, Chelsea (1559).

If anyone has any questions about the formation of the parishes, I'll do my best to answer them.

Bernice

[kerryb]

I'm following this all with interest.  Some of it is a bit confusing as I don't really know London that well at all but I like your theory about James, Bernice.

I won't be around for the next two weeks as we're off to Tuscany for a holiday.  So I wish you all well with the searching and I'll raise a glass or two, or three to some luck and some broken brickwalls.

Kerry