TREASE/TRAIES continued...

[kerryb]

Trouble with that is we know what age he was in 1842 and 1857, so maybe its just down to the fact that he's been writing for a long time and just confident signing his name whereas when he was younger he wasn' t that used to writing. 

Kerry

[oldmanriver]

Hi everyone

I've been away for a few days and am just catching up with messages.

Firstly, Kerry - thanks for the message about the site for  burials in Tonbridge Wells.  As you say it could be useful as it expands and covers other areas.  I found the ones for Jane ROFFE (nee TRAIES) and family quite quickly.

Secondly, Bob - I'm glad you managed to look at the Hackney marriages.  As you may remember, I was a bit unconvinced when Kerry told us her contact had said that the signatures of James Traies on both Hackney marriages seemed to have been written in the same hand.  I wasn't sure if the contact had seen the original entries of just Pallotts Indexes. 

What you have sent us are obviously taken from the originals.  Yes, I agree and feel convinced that the two signatures for James TRAIES on the Hackney registers are made by the same person.  My thoughts in the past have always been that although 'our' James sees to have married a Hannah (and had children by her), and had definately later married Jane BERRY and Mary JONES, the suggested marriages to Ann SUTTON and Martha LOOKER always seemed a bit dubious to me.  The one to Ann, because we know he would not have been a bachelor at that time, (although as Kerry said there was no proof of a 2nd James TRAIES in London at that time).  However, if it had been a different James who married Ann SUTTON, it would mean that either of the two James, could have been the widower marrying Martha LOOKER in 1831.  After looking at the entries you sent, it certainly looks as if whoever, married Ann in Hackney was the same person who married Martha in Hackney in 1831.

I've got two things I'd like to ask Kerry:-

Soon after we got in touch, You kindly sent me a copy of the marriage of James TRAIES and Jane BERRY and in return I sent you a copy of the marriage certificate I had of James TRAIES and Mary JONES.  This means we now both have copies of these two marriages.  You posted the signatures on the certificates on this site in response to Bob's request but not the certificates.  Have another look at the actual two certificates (Jane BERRY and Mary JONES).  I think that in fact whoever filled in all the details on the marriage certificates also filled in the names of the bride and groom and the witnesses.  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this and perhaps you could post the entire certificate on the site so that Bob and Debbie could give their views.

If it is as I think and the curate did all of the writing on the certificates including the signatures, obviously the signature of James TRAIES in the later certificates will look different to that in the earlier marriages in Hackney, even if in fact it turns out that it was the same person. 

Best wishes to all

Bernice

[kerryb]

Well funny you should say that Bernice

This has been on mind since yesterday because the more I look at those two certficates the more I see there is no difference between the signatures and the rest of the certificate writing.  Although the mary Jones one has her mark, I am not sure how these things worked.  Were these certificate copied out by someone so if Mary had left her mark that was physically shown by putting X her mark??

Anyway here is the first one - James and Jane

Kerry

Moderator Comment: Image removed - only a small portion of an image may be displayed for identification purposes

[kerryb]

And the second one being the marriage of James and Mary Jones

Kerry

Moderator Comment: Image removed - only a small portion of an image may be displayed for identification purposes

[oldmanriver]

Hello Kerry

It's Bernice again.  I've just had another look at your TRAIES page on your website.

It suggests you have a death certificate for Martha TRAIES (nee LOOKER) and that she died in Greyhound Row.  If she did die in Greyhound Row, it looks as if she must have been  married to 'our' James.  I don't think there is any doubt that our James lived in Greyhound Row.

If Martha died at Greyhound Row, she must have been married to our James.  Therefore, if we all agree that the signatures on the Hackney marriages are the same, then it must also have been he who married Ann SUTTON, even though it says bachelor!!

What does everyone think?  Miss Marple has nothing on us!!

I'd appreciate a copy of the death certificate at some time, Kerry.

Best wishes once more

Bernice

 

[kerryb]

You beat me to it again Bernice I have just opened up the death certificate to check that in answer to your query about Martha.  I will scan and send to you.

But yes it says wife of James Traies, Tin Plate Worker and is at Greyhound Row.

Kerry

[deb usa]

Hi

thanks for posting the marriage certs , Kerry

I do think that the certs were filled in or copied  by someone. I tend to think they were copied from the original and that the X, mark of Mary, shows that she could not write whereas James could , therefore no X next to his name.

deb

[kerryb]

The more I look at them the more I agree with you Deb.

Its those baptisms we need to find 

Kerry

[oldmanriver]

Hi Kerry

Thanks for the copy of Martha TRAIES death cerrtificate which you sent to me, also for posting the two marriage certificates on the board.

I couldn't get back to you last night, but soon after sending you my last message, I remembered why the two signatures of the Hackney marriages were never going to be the same as the writing on the Jane BERRY and Mary JONES marriage certificates.

The Hackney marriages took place before civil registration in 1837.  and were seen and copied by Bob, exactly how they would have appeared in the registers.

The later marriages took place after civil registration began in 1837.  Marriage Certificates are civil documents not church documents and not written in the original hand. 

At the bottom of the certificate it says CERTIFIED TO BE A TRUE COPY OF AN ENTRY IN THE CERTIFIED COPY OF A REGISTER OF MARRIAGES IN THE REGISTRATION DISTRICT OF KENSINGTON.

This is what I think this wording means and what actual took place :

The marriage register was signed by the couple (if they could sign or they just put an X if they could not).  This register remained in the church.  The Vicar or curate of the church where the marriage took place then had to copy every detail of the marriage entry in his register onto two forms and send these to the Local Registrar.  He could not copy signatures of course so all of the writing on the forms, including the signatures would be that of the curate or Vicar of the church.

Local Registry Offices run by Registrars were set up at the time that Civil Registration began (1837).  Each parish belonged to a certain Registration District. (RD).  When the Local Registrar received the forms from the church about a marriage having taken place in his district he would keep one copy and enter it in his registers.  His registers would show the entries for all of the various parishes in his Registration District.  At the end of every three months (March, June, Sept and Dec) the other copy would be sent to the main GRO, along with copies of all the other marriages that had taken place in the district during that period.

This is why if you order a certificate from the local Record Office where the event took place it will say at he bottom of the certificate CERTIFIED TO BE A TRUE COPY OF AN ENTRY IN A REGISTER IN MY CUSTODY, (the details of which were  supplied by the Vicar).  This certificate does not have the GRO stamp on the bottom right hand corner and is usually hand written by the Superintendant Registrar or his deputy, the details have been copied from their registers.

As already stated, the wording on the bottom of a certificate ordered from the GRO gives the wording TRUE COPY OF A CERTIFIED COPY.  This means send you a photocopy of the certified copy supplied to them by the Local Registrar. 

I hope you have managed to follow all this - it is a bit complicated!  The point I'm trying to make is you will not find an original signature on a certificate supplied by either a Local Registrar or the GRO.  To see an original signature you would have to look at the Parish Registers of the church.  Once these registers are full they are now usually transferred to the Local Record Office and filmed.  The Record Office deals with Church Records and the Registry Office with Civil Records.

Hope that helps

Bernice