are these the same person

[Suziesmith37]

Hi cmitmcm & Kate

Love the new set of photos - there are quite a few similarities between the old gentleman on the left and the young man in the middle.

Definitely with the nose!

You are lucky to have so many photos for reference and they are in very good condition.

Will keep looking in - Su

[KateJones]

Hi,
I've spent some time looking at these photos, and I haven't actually come up with what I was expecting. The older man isn't the young man in the hat - I'm reasonably sure of that, for the following reasons:  as men become older their noses and ears become larger - these are the only parts of the face that do continue to grow with old age.  Comparing the key points of the young 'hat' man's face, I cannot make them line up with the key points of the old man's face.  The nose on the older man is shorter than that on the young man - if it were the other way around I would accept it as general aging, but this doesn't stack up.  Also the old man's ears are smaller than those on the young man - once again, quite opposite to what would be expected. 

Having said this my son has just suggested that the old man's head is slightly tilted back, which would make his nose look shorter.  I still don't think the ears are right.

I still don't think that the new young man is the same as the 'hat' man - for the reason that his eyes are wider, and his eyebrows have a much more 'surprised' look.  However, as is shown in the attached photo (probably in the next post), his ear looks much more like that of the 'hat man'.

Sorry, it's hard to be conclusive about these, but, on balance, I think that these photos are of three different men.  Others may have a different opinion - let the argument begin.....
Love and kisses
KJ

[KateJones]

More pictures.  I've included the 'hat' man's ear, compared to the ear of the young man, as well as a close up of the eyebrows.

I hope that this has been of help.
Cheers
KJ

[cmcm1]

Wow KJ
awesome job
back to square one wonder who he is lol
thank you so very much for all the time you have spend on this the lady who sent it lives in south africa it was a postcard photo she sent what was written on the back and it looks like the old mans writting but not sure now

XX
Carol

[Suziesmith37]

Hi cmitmcm & Kate

There you are; me - two guesses and both way off

I bow to the superior technology & intelligence to use it - well done Kate!  (A job with the CSI yet!)

Will keep popping in interested to see this develop further

Su

[Canuc]

Just gone back to my human anatomy texts for a brush up, and would hazard the opinion that none of the men are the same person.

I base this on:
The frontal bone of the skull, the bit that forms ones forehead,
The nasal bone, the bridge of the nose
and the zygomatic bone, the top of the cheek to the outer aspect of the eye.

The face we see sits on these bones as a foundation, and although the cartilage of the nose and ear gets bigger the bone structure stays the same once puberty has drawn to a close. This is why forensic scientist can build a face onto a skull, just like a building the foundation suggests element and dictates others.

Of the first two men the hatless man has a more pronounced frontal bone, his eyes are deeper set than those of the younger man.
The zygomatic bone of the hatless man is more pronounced the pad of the upper cheek is higher, even if we consider that the hatless man is older and carrying the extra adipose (fat) that comes with age the hight of the fat pad can only be explained by the bone below it (think how dear old Granny looked with her teeth in and without them).
Others have spoken about the position of the eyes and the bridge of the nose, and I agree with them.

The second set of three photos can be considered in the same way, while there might be a slight resemblance between the hat wearing man and the other younger man to the right the shape of the frontal bone mitigates against it being the same person. All three have different widths to their nasal bones. There is so little shadow in the photo to the man to the man to the right so it is difficult to say with certainty but his face looks very flat and my experience in health care makes me question if there isn't a genetic disorder lurking that the other's are not exhibiting. Others have mentioned the difference in the ear location between the oldest man and the hatted man. The ear is significant which is why some European countries require an ear to be shown in the passport photo one can be identified by it.

Just think, when the government finally insists that we have to have biometric I.D. cards problems like this will be gone as all the distances and ratios of the critical points on our faces will be documented.


Think I'd rather have my problems served up this way.

Happy hunting
Canuc

[Suziesmith37]

Zygomatically speaking - no seriously see where that is coming from Canuc - good analysis!

Do you think then that all these guys were just closely related?

Su

[Canuc]

Related, not sure on that, I'd want to see a few more photos.

The two younger men may possibly be, their general face shape is similar.
The two older men I'm none too sure about, the mandibles (lower jaw, which give the chin its definition) differ from the younger men because they are squarer as opposed to pointed, but the oldest looking man's face is longer.

Happy to stick with not the same person, but wouldn't want to lump them together just yet.

Happy hunting
Canuc

[KateJones]

Absolutely fascinating Canuc.

There is so little shadow in the photo to the man to the man to the right so it is difficult to say with certainty but his face looks very flat and my experience in health care makes me question if there isn't a genetic disorder lurking that the other's are not exhibiting.

This is particularly interesting - any suggestions of what type of genetic disorder this might be? 

Obviously, there are genetic disorders which are easily diagnosed by the appearance of the person - the most obvious being Down's Syndrome, although I know that there are others.  I was interested to hear of the recent case where a doctor diagnosed Acromegaly (brain tumour) by a handshake.  My own son, who has Asperger's Syndrome, has an unusually long forefinger compared to the rest of his hand (all his fingers are also unusually long), and I know that studies have suggested a link between finger length ratio and a number of disorders.

This is an extremely sensitive issue, obviously, when one considers the possible misuse that this kind of thing could be put to.  However, diagnosis of an underlying disorder or syndrome could be very helpful.  For example, it's is possible that my son's autism might have been diagnosed much earlier (he was 14) if anyone had bothered to look at his hands, which would have meant that the interventions to assist him could have been put into place much earlier, and he and the rest of the family, could have been put through far less stress over the years.  Could it mean that we might be able to look at photographs of our ancestors, and while not getting a diagnosis, at least gain some insight into problems that they might have had?  I strongly suspect that my grandfather may have been autistic from the reports of his behaviour, which makes me a little more prepared to look on some of his more unreasonable actions with a tolerant eye. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  Is the whole idea unacceptable?
Regards
KJ