Underage marriage and permission

[tropicalj]

O'Brien's Family History - 06-03-2008
 by Bruce Eric O'Brien
http://www.gencircles.com/users/f6a1m13i9l12y25/15/data/1040

Hello  there  have a  look  at  this  link  it does have some  details  for Edward and Jane  (found  it with a  little help  from friends)

regards Jenn

[trish251]

Hello Jenn

The birth in 1838 looks rather suspect when he married in 1853 (aged 15?)

Hi Annette

My understanding of all NSW records at the registry pre 1856 (start of civil registration) is that they are copies of church registers. I would think that the certificate from 1988 contains all the information that was available. You could email one of the transcription agents to confirm that the records are copies of the church registers. They charge $9/10 for a transcript of a pre civil record.

From my own research it is rare to find "permission" given for marriage at this time. My ggg grandmother was 16 when she married. The transcription starts as follows

Register: Presbyterian Church Marriages for St Andrew’s Scot’s Church, Sydney in the County of Cumberland for the year 1837

I have the name & usual residence of the groom and bride. The name of 2 witnesses & declarations by the couple that they belonged to the Presbyterian Church. No mention of parents, age or permission. The bride was born in 1821 Paisley, Scotland. The family came to Australia in 1833. Her parents supported the marriage & would no doubt have given permission - but this is not in the register.

As noted by MarieC the only option seems to be to get copies of the Church registers. If you think some are missing from the registry, then you have noted before the options - SAG or the Mitchell library.  I emailed my friend about looking for the 1833 birth at SAG - she is on holiday at present, when I hear back I will let you know.

Trish

[acookey]

Thank you Jenn and Trish.

Jenn, I believe that this is the wrong parentage for Edward.  They have certainly attached all the children of Edward and Jane.  I know I looked at Thomas Cullen and Mary Ann Alcorn, but after a while definitely rejected them as being my Edwards parents.I have to look amongst my papers and find out why I did that.

Cetainly the birth/marriage dates are not very believable.  Edward would also have known who his mother was if it was Mary Ann Alcorn.  There were some other things that didn't fit, will let you know when I search them out.

I had a big day out yesterday, and am exhausted today.

Thanks all the same for your interest and efforts.  I have had some things discovered that I would not have known about had it not been for the great people on RootsChat.

Annette

[acookey]

Hi All

Waiting for answers to my request to NSW State Library, and also Hawkesbury Library.

However, I am looking at a book self published in 1995, re another branch of the family.  The author undertook meticulous research, that I can see, and on the subject of BMD certificates, and Church registers, this appears in his list of sources:

"Cobar, Wesleyan Church, Marriage register - marriage of Samuel William Smith and Sarah Costello (Buckley).  Additional information on the register not shown on the certificate shows the groom's birthplace, parentage, and father's occupationh, plus the bride's birthplace, parentage and father's name and occupation".

So it seems that certainly in some cases, not all the information appears on BMD certificates.

Annette

[acookey]

Hi all

Jen, Just checked back to find out why I rejected the Thomas Cullen/Mary Ann Alcorn link.  I contacted a descendant of Thomas Cullen who told me that he had not been able to find evidence of an Edward being born to this couple.  He directed me onto another family, who were descended from Edward, and they knew of the existence of the baptismal record from St. Mary's Cathedral, and that it stated his father was James Cullen, stonemason.

Hence my search.

Thanks for your interest and the time you took to check it out.  It is appreciated.

Annette

[MarieC]

Good to hear where you are up to, Annette!  Looking forward to hearing the results of your further searching....

MarieC

[trish251]

Hi All

Waiting for answers to my request to NSW State Library, and also Hawkesbury Library.

However, I am looking at a book self published in 1995, re another branch of the family.  The author undertook meticulous research, that I can see, and on the subject of BMD certificates, and Church registers, this appears in his list of sources:

"Cobar, Wesleyan Church, Marriage register - marriage of Samuel William Smith and Sarah Costello (Buckley).  Additional information on the register not shown on the certificate shows the groom's birthplace, parentage, and father's occupationh, plus the bride's birthplace, parentage and father's name and occupation".

So it seems that certainly in some cases, not all the information appears on BMD certificates.

Annette

That is certainly the case for many certificates post civil registration (after 1855 until c. 1918 I believe) as the churches apparently did not submit all the information  to the registry. I was of the impression that the registry information pre 1855 was the church registers. If this is not the case I would be most interested as I would love more information from a couple of my early marriages. What year was the marriage you mentioned above?

Trish

[scrappyshaz]

Trish,
As I have found to my amazement - church records can have much more info than what was submitted. Start with the religion & try their websites for their own archives. I paid for (not expensive) records from the Catholic Church - Goulburn diocese some years ago. Definitely worth investigating

Shaz

[trish251]

Trish,
As I have found to my amazement - church records can have much more info than what was submitted. Start with the religion & try their websites for their own archives. I paid for (not expensive) records from the Catholic Church - Goulburn diocese some years ago. Definitely worth investigating

Shaz

Hi Shaz - I agree post 1855/6 - but is this the same for the earlier records?

thanks

Trish