Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.

[patrish]

Sorry guys had to go to the gym tonight, just got back

So many questions I dint know where to begin. but I will try.

Emmanuel and Samuel are different people.

I have no concrete evidence that Samuel was Emmanuel's brother, only the hunch of address, occupation and connection with his children's names.

John is aged 31 in 1851  and Emmanuel 24 so there must be further siblings.  I would suspect from Catherine's age that John is the first born, I do have a possible marriage  for John but there is no way I can be sure, he may not have married.

Angel was Samuel and Hannah's son.


I dint think Zelig or Nathan are mine, I have seen them before on the census.

I have the marriage cert for Michael Phillips and Abigail Martin, it had Emmanuel crossed out and then Michael written above.

[deb usa]

IF they are hers ... big IF ...LOL ....

don't know how we can connect Zeilig with Emmanuel's dad ... except that they appear in the same street/court during certain censuses ....

deb

[deb usa]

John is aged 31 in 1851  and Emmanuel 24 so there must be further siblings.  I would suspect from Catherine's age that John is the first born, I do have a possible marriage  for John but there is no way I can be sure, he may not have married.

Angel was Samuel and Hannah's son.

according to the Jewish tradition then ...If John is the eldest son then his granddad would have been John too...... we have to find them in 1841 ...

another question ... re; the naming of children ... would both John (b 1820) and Emmanuel (b 1827) , children of Catherine , have name their eldest son after their dad ... if this is true then Emmanuel's dad would have been a PHILIP as Emmanuels eldest son was Philip ...am I making sense

deb

[geniecolgan]

I have the marriage cert for Michael Phillips and Abigail Martin, it had Emmanuel crossed out and then Michael written above.

That infers that Emmanuel called himself Michael,

Is that what you think Pat ?

[patrish]

No Genie, this one has his father as Abraham, a different family altogether.

Yes Debs usa you have that right both Samuel and Emmanuel called their first born sons Philip.

You now see why I need to find them in 1841 also a marriage for Emmanuel and Susan.

Samuel and Hannah Levy married in the Synagogue it gives both their addresses as 2 Swan court which I suspect was actually hers. He was a Glass Dealer, they were both minors.

Fathers name as Philip Phillip deceased and Samuel Levy Traveller.

No family names as witnesses.

I am totally amazed at where some of you have found all this information.

Its possible  Debs that  Philip that you found could be mine.

[cathayb]

you are debs.you are correct.i am afraid i am not doing any looking up as i am helping out with a number of trees at the moment and my head will boggle,but as long as you think it is helpful i will help with the jewish way of thinbking.okjay?

[cathayb]

levy or levi is def a different tribe to the ones philips are in but thats quite okay.tyhe levi are the exception to the rule as they are the priestly line of judah so always keep the name of son of levi no matter who the grandad is.they are the only part of the tribe entitled to the highest respect as the levi served God.i am not getting all religeus on you.its just the way it is.there are 12 tribes all of course with different names now although the levys only seem to have gone as far as adding cohen to theiur names.most jews will know which tribe they belong too even after all these years.most romany jews are from the tribe of dan.  love cathay

[Tephra]

And once again Cathay you are a font of information on the Romany/Jewish side of history.   

I'm totally fascinated reading this thread.

Barbara

[deb usa]

Cathay ...you are invaluable here ... I have not had to hunt for Jewish people before so your info is of great help . It seems that they are just as hard to find/decypher as the Romanies ...

Patrish ... the fact that samuel's first son was Philip seems to make it possible that he was related to Emmanuel ...also the fact that they and the families were in the cigar business.....Samuel however does state in the 1861 that he is a hawker and POB = NK... If we could find them in 1841 and Emmanuel in 1861 it would help .... a LOT!
maybe we should try to find a John with a older son called Philip .... you said you had a possible for John the older brother ... who do you think he married and have you followed him.

BTW ...does this naming tradition still happen today/

deb

hiya Barabara ...err I mean Barbara LOL