Re: Penmans/Izats

[colliersbairn]

Hi everyone,
I've been doing my family tree for some twelve years or so.  I've been lucky to visit New Registry House once to get started but now I am reliant on Scotland's People and any help I can get.  My dad was born in Falkirk but his family, the Penmans, have lived around the area since at least the mid-1600's. 

I'm looking to get past two brick walls.  My first one is Janet Iset who married William Penman.  I've been happily subscribing to the notion that her parents were James Izat and Bessie Crocket and that she was born in Aug of 1751 in Tulliallan.  I've now discovered there were two Janet Izat's.  The other one was born in 1755 to William Izat and Elspet Coult.  I suspect they were cousins as the children on both sides have identical names and to make it worse the Izat/Crocket connection had all their children christened in Tulliallan but Izat/Coult only had one, Janet.  All the Izat marriages in Culross seem to be from the Izat/Coult couple so I know they had more children.  I've looked up the marriages of the two Janets but no indication of who their parents were.  They both married Penmans, one William the other Richard.  Unless there is a monument inscription out there, or a kirk sessions, I think I'm stuck.

The second brick wall is Alexander Penman who married Jean Strang or Strong on 15 Oct 1748.  He called his first born Duncan and his second daughter Marrion which would indicate the parents were Duncan Penman and Marion Cowen.  However, I cannot find a christening for Alexander to that couple.  I suspect Jean Strong's parents were Abram Strong and Helen Cowan.  Were they possibly cousins?

Any help or suggestions are appreciated at this point.

[tommacgregor]

Hello "Colliersbairn",

It may seem strange to you that an elderly man living on the Mornington Peninsula south of Melbourne in Australia would have any interest in the Izatt's, Crockett's, Penman's, Coult's and Strangs in Scotland. How wrong you would be! Every one of those names forms part of my Family Tree.

If you go on to the Fife Board of RootsChat you will see that I have written extensively on these families and still continue to do so - every day. What you need is a helping hand, and perhaps the first step would be to read the postings that I have made, recognise the individuals that I write about, make a note of them, and then join a team that is truly dedicated to helping people like yourself.

Let me give you an example:

William Izatt married Margaret Simpson on 21st August, 1778 at Culross in Perth.
His father, William Izatt married Elspeth Couts on 8th February, 1755 at Tulliallan, Perthshire. His Grandfather John Izatt married Agnes Allan at Tulliallan, Perthshire, on 21st November, 1718. His Great-Grandfather, Thomas Izatt married Bessie Smith about 1680 at Torryburn in Fife.

Elspeth Couts father was Thomas Couts who married Isabel Stewart (Stuart) on 25th November, 1726 at Tulliallan in Perthshire. Her Grandfather was James Couts who married Elizabeth Hunter on 28th November, 1687 at Tulliallan in Perthshire.

Elizabeth Strang married Archibald Cook on 30th June, 1837 at Aberdour in Fife. Her father was John Strang who married Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt on 16th November, 1804 at Dunfermline in Fife. Her Great-Grandfather was Charles Strang who married Isabel Cunnan on 27th June, 1776 at Dunfermline in Fife.

I bet you're asking yourself how an Aussie could give you all that information in such a short space of time. Well, I'm not an Aussie, I'm a Scot who was born in Kirkcaldy, Fife and knows the county like the back of my hand. After my birth at Kirkcaldy, I lived at Auchterderran in Fife and at the end of World War II lived not all that far from Falkland Palace, which is nestled at the foot of the Lomond Hills in Fife.

Many of my family on my mother's side, the Livingstone's still live in the Cowdenbeath area of Fife.

So there you are, a brief rundown of who I am and where I came from. You are more than welcome to contact me on RootsChat or send me a message off-line, and I will be delighted to hold out a helping hand. I spend most of my time helping out people from different countries around the world and I derive quite a great deal of pleasure in doing so.

I hope you enjoy my postings on the Fife Board and I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tab11]

Hi,

I have recently discovered I have the Isabella Izett dob 1774 in my tree. She
married William Simpson a coal miner dob 1773.  Isabella's parents were
John Izatt, Tulliallan, Perth dob 1748 and Margaret Rankine, Tulliallan Perth
dob 1749.  I also have an Isobel Penman, Auchterderran, Fife further up the
tree.

I was wondering whether you have any of these in your trees?

Tab11  P.S. The names are the same but I can't seem to fit your dates in...

[tommacgregor]

Hello Tab11,

Nice to hear from you and for your continued interest. It would appear that there are quite a few connections.

Sometimes it makes sense to log your findings onto blank charts that you can download from the Internet. These will show not only the paents, but all the children too. I usually end up with quite a neat little pile at the end of a session on the computer, but the object of the session is to gain a clearer understanding of the family!

Don't try to do too much all at once, which was one of my cardinal sins when I first started on my Family Tree. If you were to start off your session today, select one, or maybe two individuals, say, Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt who married John Strang on the 16th November, 1804.  Now, on your blank Ancestral Charts you will pencil in William Izatt who married Margaret Simpson. Do a Parent/Children search and that will tell you details of their children. Go back a generation and you will have four names to contend with - William Izatt/Elspeth (Isabel) Couts and William Simpson/Janet Campbell. Back another generation and you will end up with eight names to contend with: John Izatt/Agnes Allan, Thomas Couts/Isabel Stuart, George Simpson, Ann Kerr and James Campbell/Elizabeth Burley. When you do a Parent/Children search on all those couples you certainly will end up with quite a neat little pile of forms.

With all the birthdates, birth places, etc., you will have gained quite a bit of interesting information. As you work with your Search Engine, you will sometimes see on a birth detail, who their spouses eventually were, and so you can pencil that data in, and so on and so forth.

Don't try to force it too much, because you will eventually hit a few snags. Don't worry too much about that at this early stage. All that you're trying to do is paint a pretty broad canvass. The fine details can be added later.

I usually scribble in little queries that I want to take up, and so I do that using a red biro - it stands out and reminds me of what I want to do! I will guarantee that you will be really pleased at the end of your session because, at the end of it, you will learned something that you hadn't noticed before. Honest Injun!

Never forget that you're among friends, (and sometimes family members!) who are only too please to help you out.

Kind Regards,


Tom

[colliersbairn]

Thanks for the reassurances.  I think that's where I am - too many names, too many dates and all whirling about in my head.

I think what you were trying to tell me (after reading all the posts) that I should look not only for people but naming habits.  I won't call them patterns as it isn't a pattern but more of a habit.  For instance - my grandmother named her middle daughter Minnie and if any of the family actually liked her or her name  the name Minnie would be carried on in it's purist form - Minnie.  My grandparents never knew or never thought to ask what it was short for - Williamina in this particular case.  My grandfather wanted her named after his favourite aunt as he had no sisters.

Now in the case of Bessie, it could be short for Elizabeth/Elspeth/Isobel or Beatrice and the family may have collectively forgotten what it was short for, just that their favourite aunt/sister/sister-in-law etc. was called Bessie and they wanted to honour her by giving her name to the new baby.

Tom, it looks like you and I are related on several different levels - I have Sharps as well.  Jane Sharp born about 1815 who married James Rae in Bothkennar - their youngest was Joseph Sharp Rae but that's for another list and another time.

[tommacgregor]

Hello "Colliersbairn",

Absolutely correct! The naming patterns or habits have come to my rescue many, many times. Sometimes when you're doing a bit of research you will come up with several options as to where to go to next. In those cases, I usually do a Parent/Children search and plonk the printouts down on my desk side-by-side. I then look at the names of the children, and in a lot of cases, it helps enormously.

If you have forgotten how those naming patterns or habits work, you will find them on the Fife Board, and they were put on not so long ago. My own family stuck to those habits through thick and thin until fairly recently. My wife and I didn't go through with it to the tenth degree, by any means, but preferred to have our our own choices. My two daughters were christened Debbie Marie and Andrea Marjorie. To the best of our knowledge there weren't any Debbie's or Andrea's on the Family Tree. However Marie is my wife's name and Marjorie her sister!

In many cases, the records that I look at simply don't show the Middle Name of an individual, more's the pity. However, just look at the difference when the Middle name is shown:

Alexander Burt christened 11th February, 1776 at Falkirk, Stirling.
John Burt christened 1st September, 1787 at Falkirk, Stirling.
George Brown Burt christened 8th February 1784 at Falkirk, Stirling.
Alexander Brown Burt christened 27th January, 1782 at Falkirk.
Andrew Burt christened 21st September, 1794 at Falkirk.

If you were working with two or three options and one of them had the names George Brown or Alexander Brown connected to it, which option would you show a keener interest?

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tommacgregor]

Hello again, "Colliersbairn",

As well as being connected to my ancestors, it would appear that you are also connected to our good friend, "Beansgram" from Pennsylvania in the good old US of A! Just have a look at her postings to me on the Fife Board!

I thought that you may care to look at the following naming patterns/habits that we have been discussing. As well as that, "Beans" will see another possible connection leap out at her like Dracula from the grave!

Robert Penman married a lady by the name of Isobel Baxter in Auchterderran in Fife.

Their children:

Isobel Penman christened 12th January, 1701 at Auchterderran in Fife
Robert Penman christened 17th January 1703 at Auchterderran in Fife
Jean Penman christened 24th June, 1705 at Auchterderran in Fife
William Penman christened 24th October, 1693 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Henry Penman christened 25th April, 1696 at Auchterderran in Fife.

The Henry Penman mentioned above mentioned a lady named Christian Dryella on the 11th of June, 1737 at Auchterderran in Fife. What's the betting that "Beans" will leap in like a saber-toothed tiger and say, "Tom, I bet that should be be spelled Drylie!"

Henry and Christian had the following children:

David Penman born 12th June, 1741 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Robert Penman born 22nd July, 1744 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Alexander Penman born 11th April, 1747 at Auchterderran in Fife
Jean Penman born 22nd November 1752 at Auchterderran in Fife.Gilbert born 4th June, 1754 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Margaret Penman born 13th January, 1756 at Auchterderran in Fife.
John Penman born 25th May, 1758 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Betty Penman born 22nd August, 1761 in Auchterderran in Fife.
Charles Penman born 15th March, 1763 at Auchterderran in Fife.

Just look at those names that I have highlighted in red. Grandparents, Parents and so on and so forth. Coincidence or naming patterns/habits?

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tommacgregor]

Hello again, "Tab11",

If you look at my latest postings, you will see that I have made mention of what I believe to be "your Isobel Penman, born in Auchterderran in Fife." A person who is shown on the postings as "Colliersbairn" appears to have a great interest in this side of her family too.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that some of the postings appear on the Perthshire and Clackmannan Boards!

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tab11]

Hi Tom and Colliersbairn,

Thanks for your advice, it is always useful to hear other researchers experiences.  It does become confusing when you jump from one line to another.
 I was wondering whether either of you have had a look at the
Tulliallan church project restoration? If you google in Tulliallan it will take you
straight there.  I mention this because there are graves with many of the
names we are researching.  I did find some of my ancestors there and intend
to go to Scotland sometime this year.
Thanks again Tab11