"MUTTONEYE" - Henry Lowther bc1886

[jennifer c]

George c.1899 Deptford
Annie c. 1900
Florrie c.1904
Ernest c.1906
Richard c1908
John c1910
plus two after 1911
one dies ? between 1901 & 1911

Jennifer

[jennifer c]

Mary Ann is missing in 1911?

Jennifer

[suey]

jennifer c is right
My apologies, I did miss George 1899 off the list.  There are so many Lowthers, large families all using the same christian names it's hard to decide who belongs to whom but all belonging to the two surviving sons of James Lowther Silva Carvallho (to give him his full name ) and Mary Ann Pressman.

1911 - The family are at 58 Armada Street, Deptford
George and Annie both say age 35 - married 13 years with 7 children born and 6 living.

George age 12
Annie age 11
Florrie 7
Ernest 7
Richard 3
John 1yr

Yes, Mary Ann is missing, her birth registered in Mar Q 1902 her death in the Oct Q 1902 

I see her now!.. HELEN M born June Q 1919 - Reg Dist St Olave.  Free BMD has updated since I last looked at the Lowther families. 

Also a Kate B M Lowther death registered June Q 1913 aged 2 years
and Reuban Lowther death registered Sept Q 1914

When did their mother die?  Poor woman she must have been worn out.

Suey

[bermondseygirl]

Hi Suey
Been talking to my dad and he showed me George Carvallo Lowthers death certificate. George Carvallo Lowther died 7th Feb 1944 age 68 @ Archway Hospital, his address was 60 Swinton Street, St. Pancras. Although he was originally a Cattle Drover his profession on his death is listed as a Night Watchman.
Annie Lowther (Lyons) died we think in 1947, she would have been 72.
My dad said that she was in Epsom Hospital in Surrey, it was a hospital for the mentally ill. All her children visited her there until her death. My nan always believed that her father (George Carvallo Lowther) had caused her mums madness because he used to beat her badly.
On a happier note thank you for all your help and my daughter coincidentally will be visiting Madeira on holiday in September, 200 years after James Lowther Silva Carvalho was born there.
Regards Maria

[suey]

Maria,  here are the details from the marriage cert. of George and Annie..

December 25th 1897 at St James Church Bermondsey, George Carvallo Lowther age 22 a Drover living at 25 Salisbury Street married Annie Elizabeth Lyons also age 22 from 19 Salisbury Street - his father George Lowther a Drover, her father Jeremiah Lyons Labourer
Witnesses Francis Nicholls and Mary Burns.

I've not been able to find any further info on the Lyons side of the family, although my Lyons notes say 2008 so time for another look around 

The witness Mary Burns was George's cousin.

Thank you for the extra info re deaths.  It's no surprise to me when you talk about domestic violence, I've heard it said about other male members of the family.  I think they were victims of their time, hard drinking, poor living conditions and violence seemed to go hand in hand, the women of the family did seem to get a pretty raw deal !

How exciting! a trip to Madeira, hope you have a great time and good weather. 

Suey

[Billstacey]

Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.

[suey]

Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.

If your grandmother was Charlotte Eugenia born 1898 Deptford then she would have been Henry aka Harry aka Mutoneye's sister.

Sadly no relationship to the Dorothy Squires.  Confusion among the family...there are/were a lot of them...we think because Harry's second wife was Emily Squires nee Jacks. 
Harry and Emily had four daughters (no Dorothy) but two of the girls sang and danced.  Oral history says they worked the cruise ships perhaps they used their mothers surname at some point, Squires sounding better than Lowther maybe. 

[Billstacey]

My great gran was florrie (Charlotte) born 1904

[suey]

Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.

Are you going on oral history i.e. what you have learned from your family?  Do you recognise the surname Mahoney?
When you have made three posts I can send you personal messages....The Lowthers are many and complicated