Author Topic: I need a bright brain for help  (Read 6471 times)

Offline Pollynation

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I need a bright brain for help
« on: Wednesday 16 January 08 10:23 GMT (UK) »
I have followed my grandfathers ancestry as follows.

Grandad - William Henry Cooper 1909-1981
born 15/1/1909 Newton in Makerfield to parents William Henry Cooper and Annie Higham.

G Grandfather William Henry Cooper married Annie Higham 25/4/1908 Earlestown. His father listed as Jacob Cooper, Stoker

1901 census RG13/3574/9/10 Jacob and William worked at sugar works http://home.clara.net/mawer/sugarccou.html

GG grandfather William Henry Cooper born 27/1/1878 17 Denby Street, Newton in Makerfield. Parents Jacob Cooper and Mary Jane formerly Atkinson.

Mary neglected to put on the birth certificate that she had been married twice previously.

Jacob Cooper married Mary Jane Pownall 9/10/1876 St. Peter , Newton in Makerfield Mary's father Thomas Atkinson, joiner

1881 census RG11/3786/81/36

Mary married John Pownal in 1872 and he died in 1874.

Her first marriage was to John Kynaston in 1860.

1871 census RG10/3867/8/9
1861 census RG9/2743/19/37

In 1861 census Mary is living with her parents Thomas Atkinson and Ann.

Although i have found Thomas and wife on both the 1851 and 1841 census, Mary is not listed on the 1851 and i cannot find her anywhere else. I also cannot find reference to her birth. I need her birth certificate to find her parents marriage.

Has anyone any suggestions on how to get further back along this line?
Thankyou in advance for helping
Best wishes
Pauline
Atkinson/Mountney/Gardner/Mellor/Finch/Higham-Lancashire
Cooper/Price-Shropshire
Lund/Foster/Wilkinson/Crawforth-Yorkshire
Calvert-Durham


Whoever said seek and ye shall find was NOT a genealogist.

Offline emmsthheight

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 11:53 GMT (UK) »
Hello Pauline

Have you got an age for Mary, and a birthplace?  Those who haven't got Ancestry can't see the full census details.  Could she have been born before civil registration began in 1837?

Is there a sibling who's birth you can find a birth reference for, which would give the likely parents to check with other documents.  I've done that before, and managed to be sure via other routes.

Failing thjat, if you can narrow the area down enough, someone may be able to check another source.

Best wishes.

ERmms
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas

Offline Pollynation

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 12:45 GMT (UK) »
first, thankyou for your help. I have been stuck at this point for ages

Mary Jane  is listed as 21 on marriage certificate in 1876.
1861 census age 19 birthplace Sutton, Lancs - living at Widnes, Lancs
1871 age 28 birthplace Sutton, Lancs - living at Sutton, Lancs
1881 age 42 birthplace Salton, Lancs - living at Newton in Makerfield, Lancs
1891 age 48 birthplace Saint Helen's, Lancs - living at Newton in Makerfield, Lancs
1901 age 57 birthplace Saint Helen's, Lancs - living at Newton in Makerfield, Lancs

she does have siblings on census returns they are

1841 census
Richard b 1831
Jonathan b 1836
Thomas b 1838
All born within the county

1851 census
Jonathan b 1836 b Liverpool
Thomas b 1838 b Penketh?
Margaret b 1844 b Sutton
Henry b 1846 b Sutton
Isabella b 1848 b Sutton
James b 1850 b Sutton

1861 census
James b 1850 b Sutton
Ann b 1853 Sutton
Joseph b 1857 Sutton

It would have been more helpful if they had unusual names, but as you can imagine there are lots of Atkinsons. Narrowing down a birth has been a problem.

Thankyou again for all your help
Best wishes
Pauline
Atkinson/Mountney/Gardner/Mellor/Finch/Higham-Lancashire
Cooper/Price-Shropshire
Lund/Foster/Wilkinson/Crawforth-Yorkshire
Calvert-Durham


Whoever said seek and ye shall find was NOT a genealogist.

Offline emmsthheight

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 13:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Pauline

Thank you for those.

Two things stick out straight away.

Did she really give age as 21 in 1876 (marriage)? and is it definitely her?

Either there's a second marriage, or her mother was having children for a huge period, even for those days.

Actually, Thomas and Margaret are either side of her.  How about sending  for a birth certificate of one of them?  Both as a last resort?

By the way, what was the evidence for her being called Mary Atkinson?  What were her parents called?

Also, what is she calling herself in 1861 - her married or maiden name?

Good luck

Emms
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas


Offline Sisterjane

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 13:24 GMT (UK) »
Just a thought.....but could Margaret be Mary...or have you found Margaret in later cencuses  ??? ???

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Sisterjane

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 13:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi Emms in 61 she is KYVASTON and is living with her parents....

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pollynation

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 16 January 08 16:04 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to everyone who has taken a look at my problem.

Both Mary and Jacob have ages of 21 on the marriage certificate. I think this meant the vicar didnt ask their real age just put 21 to confirm they were of full age to get married.

The exact words on the certificate are
Jacob Cooper age 21 Batchelor, collier residing Newton, father Isaac Cooper Engineer
Mary Jane Pownal age 21 Widow, residing Newton, father Thomas Atkinson Joiner.

I dont have Margaret on any other census but i have found a death which could be her March quarter 1861 Prescot.

I am unsure about a second marriage. If there was one both women were called Ann, that is the only mothers name listed on all census images.

Not only did Mary name Thomas Atkinson on her marriage certificate, she is also living with him in 1861. She has also listed her name as formerly Atkinson on her childs birth certificate. Not proof positive that he is her father but until i find a birth certificate, i cannot say 100% he isnt.

Mary was born circa 1843 around Sutton/St Helens
She married in 1860 to John Kynaston. As Jane confirmed in 1861 she is listed under her married name. By 1871 she is still surname Kynaston, a widow with 2 children and her brother Joseph Atkinson living with her. She married John Pownal in 1872, they had one child, george, then John died in 1874. In 1881 she is married to Jacob, she has 4 children listed as Kinisten, one child as Pownell and 2 Cooper children. This poses another question. If by 1871 she was a widow, how could she have a child in 1872 to John Kinisten/kynaston/Kynasten?

I have spent many years going through lots of census's, parish records and anything else i could find.

I believe all the census images and certificates that i have of Mary Jane and have listed are all her, not someone else.

Thankyou again to everyone who is trying to help.
Best wishes
Pauline


Atkinson/Mountney/Gardner/Mellor/Finch/Higham-Lancashire
Cooper/Price-Shropshire
Lund/Foster/Wilkinson/Crawforth-Yorkshire
Calvert-Durham


Whoever said seek and ye shall find was NOT a genealogist.

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 17 January 08 12:41 GMT (UK) »

Hi,

The IGI has,

Mary Jane ATKINSON 
Christening:  16 JUL 1843   Saint Helens, Lancashire
Father:  Thomas ATKINSON
Mother:  Ann 


Regards
Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline Pollynation

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Re: I need a bright brain for help
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 23 January 08 16:08 GMT (UK) »
Thankyou Daisy

I have managed to track down a birth for her sister. It looks like i will have to apply for her certificate to confirm her mothers maiden name.

Thanks to all who tried to help.
Best wishes
Pauline
Atkinson/Mountney/Gardner/Mellor/Finch/Higham-Lancashire
Cooper/Price-Shropshire
Lund/Foster/Wilkinson/Crawforth-Yorkshire
Calvert-Durham


Whoever said seek and ye shall find was NOT a genealogist.