NEWLYN "brickwall" in East London

[casalguidi]

My William NEWLYN "brickwall" in East London:

William NEWLYN 27 ba painter of 20 Robert St (Bethnal Green?) (father William NEWLYN painter)

married 1892 St James the Great, Bethnal Green RD, Middlesex/London.
 
Emily KNIGHT 28 sp of 4 Harts Lane (father John KNIGHT deceased)

Marriage witnesses:  Margaret TONKIN & W HILL so far unidentified

................................

1901 - Gosport Rd, Walthamstow, Essex

William NEWLYN 44 oil & colourman b.Whitechapel
Emily 33 b.Whitechapel
Emily 9 b.Mile End
Esther 7 b.Mile End
William 4 b.Clapton
Louisa 1 b.Clapton

This 1901 census entry is definitely the correct family and the marriage certificate is definitely correct.  BUT - the discrepances in William's age.  I know that both census and marriages can be way out, prone to error etc. etc. but he is a problem

I think William NEWLYN could well be the William NEWLYN in the family below but, again, age discrepances - neither of the above ages fit with those below   Don't ask me why, it's just one of those feelings ..............

It seems like those adults below liked "playing around" with their ages too

.......................................................

1871 - 64 West St, Mile End Old Town LND/MDX

Mary NEWLYN head wid 52 b.Fitzroy Square

William NEWLYN son 27 carpenter b.Mile End Old Town
Catherine dau in law 23 b.Stepney
William gson 4 b.St George East
Catherine gdau 3 b.St George East
Esther gdau 5m b.Stepney

Fanny NEWLYN dau 25 b.Paddington
Esther NEWLYN dau 20 b.Paddington
Elizabeth NEWLYN dau 17 b.Paddington
Mary Ann NEWLYN dau 11 b.Hackney


1881 - 5 Maclaren St, Hackney, LND/MDX

William NEWLIN 36 painter b.City
Catherine 34 b.Bethnal Green
William 14 b.Limehouse
Catherine 13 b.Limehouse
Esther 11 b.Bethnal Green
Mark 9 b.Bethnal Green
George 6 b.Bethnal Green

1891 - 11 Manderville St, Hackney, LND/MDX

William NEWLYN 40 porter b.Bartholomew Close
Catherine 44 b.Bethnal Green
Esther 20 b.Bethnal Green
Mark 19 b.Bethnal Green
George 16 b.Bethnal Green
Beatrice 7 b.Hackney
Henry 5 b.Hackney
Jessy dau 2 b.Hackney

1901 - 157 Elderfield Road, Clapton, Hackney LND/MDX

William NEWLYN 58 painter b.Marylebone
Catherine 50 b.Stepney
Esther 28 (dau in law?) b.Hackney
Henry15 b.Hackney
Jessie 12 b.Hackney
John (gson) 3 b.Marylebone

....................................

I have searched for him (quite a lot!) in 1891 but if anybody does happen to come across him in 1891 or anywhere else I would love to hear about it!

Unfortunately, this is a family where family contact was lost due to children being orphaned (mid 20c) so no prior family knowledge.

Casalguidi

[ndedross]

Hello Again,

Just a suggestion, but I have found that the 1891 Index transcription in London has a few errors with an "e" being indexed as an "a", but in the original it is an "e". Trying a few bizarre (index) spelling options (not just phonetics) might work for you - it did for me.

Nigel

[Paul E]

Hi Casalguidi

Not so much a sledgehammer, more a teaspoon, scraping away at the mortar...

but in 1891 there's only one Margaret TONKIN showing in London, aged 31, Single, working as a Parlour maid, born Tregony Cornwall,  in a Mellish household, 24 Breakspear Road, St Paul's Deptford.

best wishes

Paul

[casalguidi]

Many thanks for looking Paul.  It would be nice if we could see something to connect that lady to our marriage witness but .......... 

Thanks again

Casalguidi

[Paul E]

Hi casalguidi

Just wondering how much of this is a brickwall!  Looking at the family you have traced through 1871 - 1901 I would think its reasonable to assume this is William's.  As you say, the ages are discrepant, but that's nothing unusual with censuses, as you have taught me!

Is this a 'psychological' brick wall - ie the need to find William in 1891, or do you really have your doubts about the family listings?

My vote is for him being abroad, soaking up the luxury of European art!

(Its infuriating when you do a Googole search on William Newlyn artist to get so many references to the Newlyn 'school' in Cornwall though!)

best wishes

Paul

[Barbara F]

Casalguidi

On the whole it looks to me that William was born about 1866/7 giving the ages of 4 and 14 in 1871 and 1881.
 
On his marriage he would have been about 24/25 and I wonder whether he added a few years to his age to minimise the fact that he was younger than his wife?

Have you looked at the 1901 census entry itself?  I wonder whether William's age might just have been mistranscribed.  On the other hand it could just be an error: I spent ages looking for the birth of one of my ancestors based on an incorrect census entry - he appeared 10 years younger on the census than he actually was!

I see that there may have been a mistranscription of the age of William senior in 1891: 40 instead of the more likely 46 or 48. Also some of the other entries are a bit odd eg Mark instead of Mary. Did your info come from a transcription or the census sheet?  I can look the entry up for you if this would be useful.

I have noticed that many ages on census sheets are difficult if not impossible to read because there are lines drawn through them.

Barbara

[Barbara F]

I had a look at the 1891 census for Manderville Street.

William's age does look like 40 and his occupation does look like porter but the writing is not good.  Mark does appear to be a boy so perhaps the 1881 transcription is wrong.  His occupation is House ??

Just a thought.  I assume you have looked at Emily Hart's household in 1891?

Barbara

[casalguidi]

Hi Barbara & Paul

Many thanks for taking the time and trouble in an attempt to make some kind of hole in this scenario.  I do have the original images for all the census entries - the 1881 should have said son Mark 9 (not Mary) - I have changed it - my typo - probably used to typing too many Marys and not many Marks!  Sorry! 

Mark was a house decorator in 1891 - painter - the same profession as William junior (sorry Paul - artist I wish!) and yes, it does kind of all fit but I just don't have any proof!

Those ages of both Emily & William on the marriage certificate and 1901 census being so different are what's causing the "headache".  This whole branch have been a nightmare (from the beginning 20 years ago) - talk about "inlaw syndrome"!  Won't bore you with the other details - it'll start turning into a novel!

When I first got sight of William's marriage certificate (1892), I found a likely father, William NEWLYN painter, on my 1881 CDs within minutes, then came the 1901 census (whoops wrong age but right family).  Ok - see what 1891 says ............. yes, if they could only be found!

I agree that he may have played around with his age a bit on marriage if he was younger than his wife, Emily KNIGHT, but I don't know that he was as I haven't traced her with any certainty either.  Her given address, 4 Harts Lane, on marriage was occupied by an undertakee and family in 1891.

I have a possible candidate for her in 1871 but, again, it is just a guess and there's not much point in persuing them until I am sure it's her.  I couldn't find anything in 1881/1891 that fitted very well with this either.

4 Charles St, Shoreditch - 1871

John KNIGHT head mar 45 lab b.Abbots Langley Herts
Elizabeth wife 34 b.Ware Herts
Emily L dau 5 b.Shoreditch
John S son 1 b.Shoreditch

In answer to Paul's question "Is this psychological?"  Not sure about that though it's probably fair to say that I don't do grey - it's got to be black or white and this is neither!

Hope I haven't confused the issue any more that it is already.  I think that I'll probably have to try and find William & Emily's respective deaths to see what age is given there - have no idea when or where but their children appear to have settled just over the border in Stratford/West Ham, essex so that might give me a start.

Thanks again for all your interest.

Casalguidi

[Paul E]

Hi Casalguidi

Did you find your William Newlyn in 1861?  Just in case not...

There's a William Newleyn who is listed as head of household (at 16!) at 3 Devonshire Place, in Hackney, together with a couple of unfortunately-named lodgers...
 
 
Elisabeth Newleyn 1856  Paddington, Middlesex,  Sister 
Esther Newleyn 1851  Paddington, Middlesex,  Sister 
Fanny Newleyn 1846  Paddington, Middlesex,  Sister 
William Newleyn 1845  Paddington, Middlesex,  Head, Cabinet wardrobe maker 
Mary Shatt 1860  Hackney, Middlesex,  Lodger 
William Shatt 1815  Bishopsgate, Middlesex,  Lodger, Tinman brazier

RG9/162
Registration district:    Hackney 
Sub-registration district:    South Hackney 
ED    3    Folio:    107    Page:    6

cheers

Paul