Barr Family

[Rae33]

Hello Ann
Thanks for the 1841 details. It looks as though William and Helen Barr had a daughter Elizabeth (aged 15) or could she be Barbara in disguise?
I do feel that your William who married Elis Wylie could have been married earlier to Eliz Grozet in 1829.
Ref 1851 census - William (45) and Alexander (12) are the right ages for my lot. I discounted Hugh the first being Alex's dad as he must have died before 1833 for them to have named another son Hugh.
Do you know if James married Jane Knox in 1840. They had a son John born 1845 and also a daughter Mary born 1841.
Another point that set my antennae aquiver - the IGI forms submitted by a member of the LDS church for Hellen Robertson 1826, Jean 1830, Hugh 1833 and my Agnes Robertson (dau of Wm and Eliz Grozet) born 1830 at Ferguslie, Paisley all have the same source info - batch no 702611 and source call no 0538644 as though the same person has been researching the family.

If you come across any references to Elizabeth Grozet on your files it would be wonderful.  I have her surname spelt Grosset on Alexander's marriage cert and Grozett on his death cert in 1897. I have spent a lot of time researching her birth and there are at least four possibilities but I can't definitely identify her as yet.

Thanks for your help.....Rae

[Ann Baker]

Hi Rae

This is now puzzling me.

The LDS records if submitted I would consider but have a huge health warning on but that said

On the 1851 census the family are living at 33 Castle St Paisley

Willian aged 74 (showing as a Chelsea Pensioner former weaver born Cardross Dumbartonshire)* (we'll come back to him in a mo)
Hellen aged 63
William aged 45 (This is my guy and is consistent with the fact Elizabeth Wylie is at her parents house on the 1851 with their kids and a Janet Watt who was child from her first marriage)
James aged 33 Hand Loom Weaver (UNmarried)
Rebecca aged 31 Dressmaker (Married)
Barbara aged 28 a General Servant (Unmarried)
Hellen aged 25 a Winder (Unmarried)
Alex Grandson aged 12

* There is a birth in 1777 in Cardross for this william but I'm not sure yet if he;s the right one

It is enitrely possible that my William did marry twice but proving it is another matter. Do you know when Eliz Grozet died? If pre 1849 then it is entirely possible but I can't find a death record for her and the marriage won't have the parents on.

Hmmmmmmm one to ponder on

Ann

[Ann Baker]

Whooops Wiiliam was 64 on the 1841 - I must get better specs!

Ann

[Rae33]

Hello Ann

There are two more grandchildren on the next page of the 1851 -
Robert Crawford aged 10
John Robertson aged 6
Robert was the son of Rebecca Robertson and David Crawford married 8 Feb 1840 at Abbey Paisley.  Maybe David had died before the census and Rebecca had reverted back to her maiden name. Robert Crawford was born in 1840 and died 26 Oct 1859 at Paisley aged 19.
I found a John Robertson christened 22 Jun 1845 High Church Paisley parents James Robertson and Jane or Jean Knox who married 6 Dec 1840 at High Church Paisley. Unfortunately there are no details of address or parents on the marriage proclamations. I thought Jane Knox may have died before the census which is why James is shown as single.  That is why I thought John aged 6 belongs to James and Alexander aged 12 must belong to William.
I wasn't able to find another census with a father William and son Alex at the right ages which is why I have been concentrating on this family.  Of course there could be another son of Wm and Helen Barr we haven't unearthed yet who could be the father of Alexander (12).
I haven't been able to find when Elizabeth Grozet died but know that she was deceased when Alexander married Mary Wallace in 1870.

Regards....Rae

[Ann Baker]

Hi Rae

Sorry I missed the two boys of the end. My second page had become detached from me first. I knew about the David Crawford marrying Rebecca in 1840 bit. Nothing strange about her having the Robertson name on the census especially if dad was the one giving the details. My dad still uses my maiden name - it's a Scottish thing lol.  David tho certainly had died by the 1861 as Rebecca is on there with Janet Watt (Elizabeth Wylie's eldest from her first marriage). She is shown as a widow but can I find her death cert? And no kids at all which is odd.

James could well have been married twice as well. The girl he married in 1851 (Isabella - sometimes shown as Elizabeth- O'Hara) is a lot younger than him.

The thing that bothers me and not sure how going to solve is there is a gap in the kids of William and Helen between about 1809 and 1820. The Robertsons were non conformists which basically means the baptisms aren't on Scotland;s People and a lot are missing from the IGI.

The other bad news is the BMDs are not on the Kirk Session records for the church they were members of - I had this checked by a professional researcher . The only thing I can see now to follow up on are the Paisley Poor records which start in 1839 and hope they claimed Poor Relief and that identifies the missing kids.

I'm not discounting the fact James or William married twice but until it;s proven is still an unanswered question - this family drive ya nuts lol!

Ann

[Rae33]

Hi Ann
Must say it is not looking good for me to take my research beyond William Robertson and Elizabeth Grozet.
Have you been able to locate your William (45 on 1851) on the 1841 census? I have searched everywhere but no luck.  Found Jean living with Rebecca Crawford at High St Johnstone, but not Barbara. They are an elusive lot.
Can't find my Alexander Robertson on 1841 either and only the one at Castle Street (with a father William) in 1851. My mother-in-law was certain the family all lived in Paisley, and I have the three death certificates for William Robertsons who died between 1870 and 1897 in Renfrewshire and two others from Glasgow from Scotlands People and none of them match up. All quite discouraging.
I always thought the gap between Hugh ch 1809 and James b c1816 was because William (Chelsea pensioner) was away at war. Fits in with the Napoleonic wars.

Thanks for your help Ann. Best wishes.......Rae


 

[Ann Baker]

Hi Rae

Researching Robertsons is very frustrating indeed. This lot especially because the were non conform church wise and I know their BMDs are not in the Kirk Sessions - I had a researcher to to Edinburgh for me. Not just them that are missing but all BMDs she reported back. This makes it even harder.

I am going to see what I can find down the Chelsea Pensioner and war route as that may bear some fruit.

Barbara I MAY, stress may, have found . There is a Barbara Robertson who on the 1861 is the right age but is in London as a servant to a GP and his wife who was born in Scotland. It also says she is a widow so am going to follow that one up cos she definitely didn't die in Scotland.

The Jean with Rebecca is Elizabeth Wylie's daughter from her first marrigae - the one that's with her mother and Wylie grandparents on the 1851. Now interestingly Rebecca is shown as a widow on the 1861. David Crawfor is on the 1841 with her and Robert then disappears. Now he could have died pre 1851 but I have found a death cert in 1861 for a David Crawford in Paisley. He'd be about the right age - sadly he hung himself. The niggle I have tho is that this happened 6 months after the census was taken so more digging to do there.

I've not found my William on the 1841 yet which could mean he was married before. Not ruling that one out but not ruling it in til can find more concrete proof.

I know they attended the Canal St church. As it happens my gt aunt goes there. She's not related to the Robertson side as this was mum's mum's side and Auntie Mae is mum's dad's sis BUT she may be able to ask some questions for me. The church may have records she can see.

The other avenue I'm going to look into is the poor records and will be emailing the library later today about them . They didn't start til 1839 but you never know!

Probelm we have here is that there were a lot of Robertsons in Paisley and it feels like they were all called William or James lol.

Will let you know if I turn anything else up

Ann

[Rae33]

Hello Ann
Yes Ann there seems to be a huge number of Robertsons in Paisley, and they never seem to be MY Robertsons!  I found eight children for James and Isabella/Elizabeth O'Hara on the IGI.  Now I'm doubting James married Jane Knox as they had a Mary and a John and then John names two of his children with Isabella, Mary and John.  I can hardly keep sending them to an early demise.  Did you find James' death certificate - I have had no luck there.
Interesting you say your Robertsons attended the Canal St Church, as Alexander and Mary lived at 16 Canal Street in 1871. I pore over the maps and it's interesting to see they seemed to live in the same areas over the years, Storie and Maxwellton Street.  Alexander died at 23 George Street in 1897.

Thanks again.......Rae

[Ann Baker]

Hi Rae

I do have James death cert and no mention of any other Mrs than the O'hara lady.

Also have all the kids birth certs bar the first two. First one was a James and second not known. Only reason have these is because the birth cert for the 3rd child was in 1855 (marvellous year for certs) and it says 1 boy living and one dead and this is 3rd child. The first 2 were before they got married. Naughty James cos she'd only have been a kid herself. According to their marriage banns she was 18 when they got married and he was 30.

James died 21/1/1874. On the death cert is says dad John and mum Helen Barr. I am taking this as correct cert because of the fact his wife is correctly recorded and his mum's name is OK. Death was reported by bro in law a James Robertson.

So one of his sisters married a Robertson but which one?

George St is just round corner from Canal St! In fact runs parallel.

I have also found an 1841 entry for a Barbara with also a Jess and an Agnes Robertson. Being 1841 doesn't say if related but they could be so am looking at that. If she is THE Barbara then she was a shawl sewer and lived in Stevenson St. That would fit with other locations where the family were in Paisley in 1841 and would ex[plain why she's not on the 1841 with mum and dad tho is more the south end than the west where they were later.

Interesting re Storie st because the William who is my gt gt grandfather also lived in Storie St which is a wee bit nearer Paisley town centre.


They are sent to try us

Ann