Army Numbers WW1

[millymcb]

Hi all

I was just wondering about men's regimental service numbers during the First War. I know that their numbers changed during their careers when they moved regiments etc but I thought that the numbers they had were unique.

But when I was looking for one of my relatives (John Lovatt Knight) I noticed that his number 240512 is the same as some others also on CWGC. I have his papers from Kew and that is definitely his number (although I have not seen papers for the other men).  Is this normal?

KNIGHT, JOHN LOVATT Lance Corporal 240512
14/11/1917
22 Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)United Kingdom
III. A. 27.PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY,

COLE, H C Private 240512 22/07/1918
Unknown
Devonshire Regiment United Kingdom
VII. B. 8.MARFAUX BRITISH CEMETERY

GIDDINGS, CYRIL W. Private 240512
16/08/1916
30 Gloucestershire Regiment United Kingdom
Pier and Face 5 A and 5 B.THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Milly

[Jebber]

You may find this site of interest.

http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/DCLINos.html

Regards,
Jebber

[mmm45]

Hi Milly
unique numbering for servicemen came in after WW1 (1920) and became an Army Number
To that end  in the  Great War you could and would end up with lads with the same number in different regiments.(ie a Regimental Number)
If you do a check on the NA Medal Cards by just putting a number in you will see it throws up a list of men with the same service number.
Yes you are correct that the men would probably be issued with a new number when moving Regiments....It was hard enough trying to remember one!

Ady

[LizzieW]

My g.uncle signed on in 1906 aged 14 and appears to have had a 4 figure number, but during WWI, he had a different Army number.  He didn't change regiments.  Would he have changed numbers when he was no longer a boy soldier?

Liz

[mmm45]

I think numbers changed from 4 to 6 digits in 1916 or 17.
I have a few West Ridings 4 digit numbers who were issued a new 6 digit one.

Ady

[millymcb]

Thanks Ady - I didn't realise that they duplicated numbers.  How confuising.

And thanks for the site Jebber that's really handy.

Milly

[harribobs]

My g.uncle signed on in 1906 aged 14 and appears to have had a 4 figure number, but during WWI, he had a different Army number.  He didn't change regiments.  Would he have changed numbers when he was no longer a boy soldier?

Liz

the territorial battalions of most regments were renumbered in 1917 from (usually) a four digit number to a six digit number, these numbers were still regimental and so duplicates within there were still duplicates through out the  army

the good news about the changes is that each individual battalion was given a block of numbers to issue so we can trace which battalion the soldier was with at that time

for example ( and i'll use the manchesters as i used to them) a soldier prior to the changes could have 1234 as his number, which really would only tell us he was either a regular or a territorial, a change in 1917 to (for example) 276555, we can look at a table and see that number was allocated to the 7th battalion 

[LizzieW]

Thanks for all the info.  My g.uncle was killed towards the end of 1917, so his number must have been changed sometime before then.  At least it explains why he had two numbers, I was beginning to think they were two different people.

When I eventually get to Kew, presumably I will need to quote both numbers to get two lots of army papers.

Liz

[Tom McC]

Milly,

The Territorial Force re-numbering is useful for knowing which battalion of the Regiment that a soldier has signed his engagement with (in John Lovat Knight's case, the 5th), however, it does not necessarily determine the battalion that he was serving with. As you can see from the SDGW picture attached, John was serving with the 6th Bn when he was killed.

Please find below the blocks of Regimental numbers allocated to the 4th to the 7th Battalions of the Notts & Derby Regiment, Territorial Force:

200001 to 240000 4th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
240001 to 265000 5th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt 
265001 to 305000 6th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
305001 to 330000 7th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt 

The fact that John has changed battalions would suggest to me that something has happened, either wounded or become sick. On his recovery his Regimental Depot would have sent him back to the front to the Battalion which most needed him. It is likely to be after the battle of Loos, as before then the Territorials were contracted to only serve with their individual battalion of their regiment, and it took and it took an Army Council order, sanctioned from up high, to amend this. It is probably worth looking through the local press as this is full of useful information regarding casualties. You would be lucky to find this in the National Archives, as someone burned nearly all of the casualty records in the 1980s.

Both battalions were in the 46th North Midland Division. This division had a hard time at the battle of Loos, losing 3000 men in 10 minutes. After a tough time at Ypres, it was then in action again as the most northern Division of the British attack on the firsta day of the Battle of the Somme. It attacked at one of the, if not the worst positions, which was against a German fortified village that never fell - Gommecourt. Some of its men are buried in GOMMECOURT WOOD NEW CEMETERY.

Bill MacCormack, has written an excellent book about the 56th (London) Division (the Division in the southern part of the attack on Gommecourt), and has recently submitted his new book about the 46th (North Midland) Division for printing. I am sure it will be both informative and interesting. It may not mention John, but it will certainly mention a lot of the circumstances that he would have found himself in.

There is also a book about the 6th Bn by Clifford Houswey: Men of the High Peak: A History of the 1/6th Battalion the Sherwood Foresters 1914-18.

The 5th Battalion have a War Diary at the National Archives at Kew: WO 95/2695

As do the 6th Battalion: WO 95/2694

Hope this has been of use

Tom McC