Henry Matson of Wingham born 1823 or 1814?

[Valda]

I mentioned Richard Rogers will because of the marriage details you gave.

'I have found another marriage for a Mary in Swingfield -
Mary  Matson  otp  Richard ROGERS   Alkham     B Swingfield        Mar 25 1775'


1871 census RG10 903 folio 8
Upper Delce Farm Maidstone Road Rochester
Robert Matson Head Unmarried 62 Farmer of 150 acres employing 6 men and 1 boy Rochester Kent
Elizabeth Matson Mother Widowed 83 Farmer's widow Dover Kent
4 servants
George Matson Son Visitor Widower 53 Retired Banker Rochester Kent

1881 census RG11 889 folio 25
Visitor on board the night of Sunday 3rd April 1881 HMS Pembroke Kent
Charles G. Matson 21 Lieut RMLI Tasmania

Charles was living with his widowed stepmother Louisa on the 1901 census.

MATSON, Frederica Christina   
Age at Death:31
Death Date:31 Mar 1863
Tasmania
Ref Number:3829

East Langdon is not on the IGI or BVRI so again I'm afraid I have no access to the parish registers for baptisms or marriages.

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

MATSON, Jas Moon   
Father:Unknown
Mother:Unknown
Age at Death:62
Death Place:Kew
Reg Year:   1881 Reg State:Victoria
Ref Number:10900

MATSON, Robert Stephen C Death
Father:George
Mother:Sievewright Frederic
Birthplace:Tasm
Reg Year:   1863 Reg State: Victoria
Ref Number:9382   

Regards

Valda

[doverrog]

Thanks for the latest.
I'd forgotten that marriage, (Mary  Matson  otp  Richard ROGERS   Alkham   B Swingfield   Mar 25 1775') but it still looks unconnected at the moment.
The death record for Jas is interesting as it seems to confirm that there might be another James Matson who was born about 1819?
MATSON, Jas Moon   
Father:Unknown
Mother:Unknown
Age at Death:62
Death Place:Kew
Reg Year:   1881 Reg State:Victoria
Ref Number:10900

I was already thinking that James Moon Matson might have been a little old to be the James who is the father of these children
CD-Rom State Library Melbourne - Pioneer index
Sarah Jane d/o James Matson and Martha Graham     b Edge              1870
James Graham s/o “     “                       “           “      b Malmsbury     1873
Margaret Marie d/o     “                       “           “        b Tr Ar              1875
Isaac Carroll     s/o         “                       “           “     b Tr Ar             1878
Martha Catherine d/o    “                      “           “       b Morw             1885

We have James Moon as born 26th July 1810 which makes me wonder if there should be a missing James who married Martha Graham.  If we assumed he was about 20 when his first child (if Sarah Jane was the first) was born then this 'new' James would be born about 1850.
That seems to indicate a possibility of THREE James. In 1810, about 1819 and about 1850.
Henry Matson and Alice Manifold don't have a James and neither does Henry with his second wife Edith Dearden. However we may not have a complete list for all of Henry's children.
Henry and Alice Manifold children I have are -
Mary Elizabeth  (3/3/1838 -?)
Henry Manifold (22/9/1839 - 4/11/1927)
Alice Barnes (25/5/1841 - ?)
Robert William (27/2/1843 - 17/1/1844)
John Thomas (30/3/1845 - 15/4/1895)
Emma Jane (1/3/1847 - 1920)
William Robert (2/12/1848 - 14/10/1854)
Kate Julia (6/2/1851 - ?)
Conway George (9/4/1853 - 22/1/1930)
And for Henry and Elizabeth Dearden - (Who says that strange naming is a modern phenomena?!)
Charles Fferand Dearden (10/5/1868 - ?)
Edith Julia Theodora (19/6/1875 - ?)
Madelaine Angela Clara (11/1/1878 - ?)
Florence Getrude Axila (8/10/1881 - ?)

So a further mystery.

I've been going through my papers and found that some research carried out in the 1960's claims to have traced the Rochester line of Matsons -
….Rochester branch has been traced to Ringwould in 1714 and thence to Rochester in 1807. It is now represented in New Zealand and England
This researcher is now sadly deceased and I am unable to trace all his research. We don't as yet have anything from Ringwould, except-
1) Robert Matson and Ann Arnold marriage in 1716
    I have 8 children for this couple - Stephen (1731- ?), Mary (1728 - 1807), Richard (1726 -1734), Hannah (1750- ?), Jane (1754 - ?), Ann (1757 - ?), William (1762-1785) and Robert (1764 - ?). No James!

2) Edward christened 25th December 1845 son of Charles Matson and Kitty

3) Robert Matson (? -abt.1768) and Jane Gibbon whose children I have as Robert, Hannah, Jane, Ann and Mary. I have no dates for any of them though.

I'm hoping to visit Folkestone next Tuesday to look at the Swingfield register copies.

[Valda]

I think the death entry for James Moon Matson may just be a mistake with his age actually 72 not 62. You are looking at a transcription of the indexed entry not the actual entry or the death certificate itself. On the 1851 census in Rochester James Moon was aged 40.

This is the death entry for the husband of Martha nee Graham. Fairly conclusive since one of their children was named Isaac Carroll Matson.

MATSON, Jas Death
Father:Isaac
Mother:Carrol Sarah
Age at Death:43Y
Death Place:Morwell
Reg Year:   1886 Reg State: Victoria
Ref Number:13862   

Regards

Valda   

[Valda]

Source: Prerogative Court of Canterbury, Probate 21 Jan 1769
Robert Matson of Ringwould, victualler, will dated 6 Jul 1768
Wife Jane, executrix
Children Hannah, Jane, Ann, Mary, William and Robert Matson
Brother in law Stephen Gibbon of Ringwould, shopkeeper
Witnesses John Cranbrook, Joh. Foord, John Cannon Jun'r Clk to Mr Roby Att'y at Deal.

Will of Robert Matson, Labourer of Ringwould , Kent 23 January 1768 PROB 11/935 
Will of Robert Matson, Yeoman of Ringwould , Kent 16 March 1842 PROB 11/1959

Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury Will Index
Surnames                      Forenames             Places                           Made Prob Reference
Matson                        Robert                Ringwould                        1841 1842 PRC17/110/616a

Deaths Dec 1841   
MATSON  Robert    Dover  5 69

I can't see that Robert Matson and Ann Arnold could have had the children you list whose birthdates range from circa 1726 to 1764 which would require Ann to be child bearing for 38 years with a gap from 1731 to 1750 which would normally indicate the second set of children are another couple's, plus the marriage you give took place in 1716.

Regards

Valda

[doverrog]

Hello again.
Following a long afternoon at Folkestone Library, I was able to find a few Matson entries in the copies of the Swingfield Parish records they have:-

Baptism -   Matilda d. of Mr Robert Matson and Matilda his wife, was bapt. May 22 1746.*
Burial -      Mr Robert Matson was buried July 13. 1746.
Burial -      Mrs Matilda Matson buried 9th February 1773,
Marriage -  Richard Rogers and Mary Matson were married March 25 by banns 1775.
Baptism -  Robert son of Robert and Elizabeth Matson July 10 1785.
Baptism -  Mary Dau. of Robert and Elizabeth Matson April 29 1788.

* I also looked through the Marriage licence list and found this:-
Matson, Robert, of Shepherdswell, ba., and Matilda Weston of Lydden. spr. At L. Sept. 17, 1733.

We already have Robert Matson (abt1741[aged 40 in Marriage Licence] - 1820) and his wife Elizabeth Pilcher who were married at Swingfield 15th November 1781. The baptisms of two of their children, Robert (1785) and Mary (1788) are now confirmed.

With the above information about Robert and Matilda it would seem logical to look for a record of the birth of a son named Robert Matson in the Lydden (where they were married) or Shepherdswell Parishes about 1741. As we have their daughter Matilda baptised in 1746 in Swingfield, it was a disappointment that I couldn't find a baptism for Robert.

I've looked again at the children of Robert Matson and Ann Arnold, married 8th October 1716 at Ringwould, and I agree that I had them recorded wrongly.
I now have Robert Matson and Ann Arnold with 2 children. Richard (1726-1734) and Stephen (1731-?).
I have James Matson and Ann Arnold marriage 7th December 1767 at East Langdon. I have them with 7 children. Sarah (1768-?), Susannah (1770-1770), Ann (1772-?), James (1774-?), Susannah (1780-1756), Richard (1783-?) and Mary (1787-1791).
So it looks as though Robert Matson was Ann's first husband and that he died before December 1767 when Ann married James Matson.
There is a will recorded for a Robert Matson, Labourer of Ringwould, Kent. 23rd January 1768. (Prob 11/935) This may be for Robert who was Ann's first husband, but it seems the dates aren't quite right.

If we can find the record of a birth of Robert Matson, son of Robert and Matilda about 1741, we have the link confirmed through to our Australian descendants. Do you have anything for Lydden or Shepherdswell perhaps?

Also on the seemingly two husbands of Ann Arnold, do we have a burial for Robert, perhaps in Ringwould  in the years before 1767 when she married James?
I've looked at the record I have for James (who I have as the son of James Matson [1698-?] and Elizabeth Garner, married at Ringwould in 1728) and I don't have a brother named Robert so it doesn't look as though her two husbands were brothers.

I will be 'over the moon' if we can link in the Australian descendants so I've got my fingers crossed.
The James Matson who was Ann Arnold's second husband is also 'key' to my tree as I am a direct descendant from this couple.

[Valda]

Part 1
If the Ann Arnold who married Robert Matson in Ringwould in 1716 married for a second time she would marry as Ann Matson widow not Ann Arnold. A marriage in 1716 would place her birth circa 1696ish. Even if for some unexplained reason she did marry James Matson as Ann Arnold (and was the same woman) in 1767 that would mean she would be near or in her early 70s and therefore having children by James into her early 90s??

When you searched Swingfield records at Folkestone library were you searching copies of the actual parish registers or copies of the Bishops and Archdeacon's transcripts. The latter two were yearly copies of the registers sent to the Bishop and Archdeacon. BTs can be inaccurately copied with entries missed and years when copies were not made or not sent. If you were using transcripts did you check that every year was covered or were years missed which is often the case? If you use BTs at some point because of possible inaccuracy it is always best to search the actual parish registers themselves. For instance you did not find Elizabeth Matson's baptism, the sister of Robert and Mary who married John Knott. There is no reason not to think her baptism also took place at Swingfield.

Lydden is a parish adjacent to Swingfield. Registers are not on the IGI or BVRI. It is traditional that marriages take place in the woman's home parish not the man's. In most cases you would then expect the couple to move to the man's parish of residency if this was different. Shepherdswell I think is Sibertswold parish - older spelling 'SHEBBERTSWELL' adjacent to Lydden parish on the other side of Lydden parish to Swingfield. There is no coverage of Sibotswold/Shepherdswell (St Andrew) parish registers on the IGI or the BVRI or NBI.

see for Kent parish coverage on indexes
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/research2.html

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

Part 2

'Googling' Matson and Shepherdswell finds extracts such as

Sibertswold / Shepherdswell
Some Monumental Inscriptions of Sibertswold Church,  Noted by Rev Bryan Faussett in 1756-60

'In Memory of William MERRYWETHER Gent, who died in the Faith and Fear of God, on the 9th Day of June 1702 in the 52d. Year of his Age. He married Sarah, eldest Daughter of Mr James MATSON, of this Parish of Sybertswold'

'On a Flat Stone. Here lieth the Body of Mr Robert MATSON, who had Issue by Joanna his Wife, 3 Sons, and 5 Daughters, whereof 2 Sons and 4 Daughters survived. He died Feb. 8 1715/16. Aged 53 Years. Also James Matson, their Son, died July the 14th 1716. Aged 18 Years. They lived belov’d, and died lamented.'

'On Another. Here lieth the Body of Mary The Wife of Mr James MATSON. She died Apr. 13 1714. Aged 73 Years. Here also lieth the Body of Mr James Matson late of this Parish, who had Issue by Mary his Wife 3 Sons and 2 Daughters, Robert, Sarah, Mary, James and John. He died June 20 1708 after a long Sickness of The Stone. Aged 78. Imitate him in his Life, who never fell from God for any Pains of Death.'

'On Another. Here lieth the Body of Mr John MATSON, late of Wingham, who first married Mary, Daughter of Stephen GOLDFINCH of Eastry, by whom he had 2 Sons and 2 Daughters. His Second Wife was Anna.'

'On Another. James, Son of Mr John MATSON died Jan. 17 1712-13. Aged 12 Years.'

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/MIs/MIsSibertswold/01.htm

Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury Will Index
Surnames                     Forenames           Places                           Made Prob Reference
Matson                       James               Shepherdswell                    1593 1594 PRC17/49/112
Matson                       James               Shepherdswell                    1708 1708 PRC17/81/113b
Matson                       Joanna              Shepherdswell                    1730 1730 PRC17/88/14d

http://www.kentarchaeology.ac/ekwills_a/series/adci/adp_san.htm

Extracts from Kent Wills

Source: Consistory Court of Canterbury Vol 57 f.225, Probate Aug 1702
William Merriwether of Sheperdswell, gent.
Friend Captain Henry Marsh
Father and mother Matson
Brothers Robert, James and John Matson
Brother Thomas Sladden
Daughters Mary, Anne and Sarah Merriwether
Son Richard, minor

Source: Consistory Court of Canterbury Vol 64 f.245, Probate 24 Feb 1759
Anne Matson of Wingham, widow, will dated 6 Aug 1757
Sons in law John Matson of Sibbertswold and his wife Hester, Samuel Dill of Dover and his wife Mary, James Smith of Guston, Michael Wood and his wife Elizabeth
Sons Robert and Thomas, executors
Children of my late son Charles Matson, deceased and his widow Judith
Son in law Thomas Dowker and his wife Susannah
Son in law John Spratt and his wife Dorothy
Witnesses Jo Pomfret Junr., Thomas Browne

Source: Consistory Court of Canterbury Vol 61 f.613, Probate 3 Jan 1731
John Matson of Wingham, will dated 6 Jun 1729
To be buried at Sibbertswold with my son James, deceased
Sons John, Robert, Charles and Thomas
Occupiers Peter White of Sibbertswold, James Dixon, Richard Dixon
Sister Meriwether,br> Sir Robert Furnese
Mary, Elizabeth, Ann, Susanna, Hester and Sarah Smith, daughters of my daughter Ann
Daughter Mary wife of Samuel Dell
Daughter Elizabeth wife of Michael Wood
Daughter Dorothy Matson
Cousin Christopher Matson
Daughter Ann wife of James Smith
Wife Ann, executrix
Brother William Wood and his son Michael, trustees and overseers
Witnesses Sarah Merriwether, Mary Pettit, David Campredon?
Codicil 4 Jun 1730
Daughter Ann Smith now deceased
Daughter Susanna wife of Paul Kirby

Source: Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury Vol 81 f.113, Probate 17 Jul 1708
James Matson of Shepherdswell, yeoman, will dated 26 Mar 1708
Wife
Sons John and Robert
Daughter Sarah Mereweather
Daughter Mary wife of Thomas Sladen
Daughter Elizabeth wife of James Matson
Grandson John son of James Matson
Servant Thomas Marsh
Witnesses Henry Pemble, Anne Mereweather, Thomas Gold

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/extr7.html

There are Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills for Matsons in Wingham but not in Sibertswold/Shepherdswell or Coldred.

Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills
Will of Charles Matson, Yeoman of Wingham, Kent 15 May 1750 PROB 11/779
Will of Judith Matson, Widow of Wingham , Kent 16 December 1785 PROB 11/1136
Will of Charles Matson, Gentleman of Wingham , Kent 08 May 1832 PROB 11/1800

Kent FHS have for sale a fiche/s of Shepherdswell/Sibertswold parish registers

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/prfiche1.html

Regards

Valda

[doverrog]

Once again Valda, I would like to thank you for all the research and guidance.
Part 1
If the Ann Arnold who married Robert Matson in Ringwould in 1716 married for a second time she would marry as Ann Matson widow not Ann Arnold. A marriage in 1716 would place her birth circa 1696ish. Even if for some unexplained reason she did marry James Matson as Ann Arnold (and was the same woman) in 1767 that would mean she would be near or in her early 70s and therefore having children by James into her early 90s??
You are, of course, quite right. It does seem as though there must have been 2 Ann Arnolds who both married a Matson. A co-incidence, but the dates prove it. I've altered my records back to as they were and left them as showing two different people.
The documents for Swingfield were microfilmed copies of the Bishops Transcripts for 1603-1813, 1813-1862 and 1869-1872.  I remember now that the titles on the microfilm did indeed say that some years were missing for Swingfield. Stupidly I didn't think to note which they were.  The early documents were effectively unreadable and some later pages were partially obscured or damaged.  I will contact the library as soon as I can, they're closed for a renovation until Tuesday, and see if anyone can tell me the exact missing years. Although, because I did at least write down the titles on the microfilms, we do know that 1863-1868 were missing, not that that is the period we are looking for.
At the moment we seem to be left with "Probably Robert (about 1741-1820) could be the son of Robert (1712-1746)" but no concrete proof.
I'm not sure how I can resolve this. it seems that Canterbury Cathedral is the only possible source.
The information in your part 2 has helped confirm some details within the Matsons I already had and the monumental inscriptions are very useful.
Many thanks again.