Completed Can't find any of these in BMD ?

[gerryfitz]

I am about demented trying to find these people in the BMD lists.

They are the children of Robert BELL and his wife Martha.

What I am after is Martha's maiden name.

This information is gleaned from Census Records:

Margaret Bell b 1842 in Carlisle
Thomas Bell b 1844 Newby Carlisle
Henry Bell b1849 Newby Carlisle
Martha Bell b1856 Newby Carlisle

I found the baptism record for this next one in the Carlisle Record Office but mothers name only given as Martha.

William Bell,christened 8.6.1862 at Wreay by Carlisle, parents Robert Bell and Martha of Southwaite Farm

I can not find any records of a marriage for Robert Bell and a Martha (I bought the record for Carlisle v25 p46 Mar 1846 and it is not them, wrong occupations and wrong area).

Why on earth can I not find any of these childdren in the BMD?

Any help appreciated,

Gerry

[Necromancer]

assume that you are going a year either side of the census 'age' ?

theres 3 Margarets born Carlisle 1841 - 1843 for example ....

[Ecneps]

Hi Gerry,

Several possibles for the children in the freebmd index - they may not have been baptised the same year they were born.

Best one for William seems to be 1862 June Qu Carlisle 10b 44_  ,
you could contact Carlisle register office and ask them to check the parents' names before buying the certificate.
http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/registration/wheretofindus/carlisle.asp

Have you found them in the 1851 census?  I found a Margaret, Thomas & Henry Richardson right ages living with grandparents surnamed Richardson -Wondering if Robert or Martha married twice and the children would be found under Richardson in bmds?

Barbara

[GeoffE]

My guess for the marriage is

Marriages Mar 1861 
Bell    Robert        Carlisle    10b   518   
Dawson    John         Carlisle    10b   518   
Mattinson    Mary Ann         Carlisle    10b   518   
Richardson    Martha         Carlisle    10B   518

Martha RICHARDSON bap 26 Dec 1824 at Great Orton, dau of Thomas and Margaret (both names of her children).

Margaret RICHARDSON bap 25 June 1843 Carlisle, dau of Martha
Thomas RICHARDSON bap 16 June 1844 Carlisle, son of Martha

The "hilliterate haitch" strikes again, changing Orton Rigg to Haughton Rigg (Martha's birthplace).

EDIT:  Hi Barbara, I hadn't seen your reply when I posted - it seems we have reached the same conclusion from different directions

[Ecneps]

This is only a possibility of course, but maybe Martha had the first three before marriage, then married Robert later:

1841 HO107/176/92 fol.6 p.6
Newby, Cumberland
RICHARDSON
Thomas 52 Farmer
Margaret 43
Edward  20
Martha  18
John 14
Thomas 13
Mary 11
Dorothy 8
Joseph  5
all born in county

1851 HO107/2431 fol.230 p.
Newby, Cumberland
RICHARDSON
Thos, head, m, 61, Farmer of 61 Acres  Dalston Cumb
Margt, wife, m, 53, farmers wife, Orton Rigg, Cumb
Margt, dau, s, 28, farmers dau, Dalewintleton
John, son, s, 24        "        son       "
Joseph,son, s 16      "          "       Orton Rigg
Dorothy, dau, s 18    "        dau    Heighby
Margt, granddau, 9    "  g.dau       Newby
Thos.     "  son    7     "   g.son         "
Henry     "    "      1     "        "            "


Martha & Robert are living together I think in 1851, will post later
Barbara

Ditto Geoff!!!

[GeoffE]

Martha & Robert are living together I think in 1851, will post later

Perhaps that was the "wrong certificate" that gerryfitz puchased.  Nothing matches with 1861 too well, does it?

[Ecneps]

No, don't think this is the right Robert & Martha for the family I found, could well be the two on the cert Gerry got, do they tally with your cert, Gerry?
Your marriage ref looks more likely, Geoff

1851 HO107/2429 fol.527 p.52
English Street, Carlisle
Robert Bell head mar 35 Draper Employing 1 assistant & 3 apprentices  Bowness
Martha Bell wife mar 33              Carlisle

unable to find the right ones in 1851, marriage cert needed for Robert's father's name.
Barbara

[gerryfitz]

Firstly, Many thanks for all these replies.

The William Bell in the BMD index for 1862 June Qtr 10b 44, turned out to be the son of a single woman called Sarah Bell of Baileystack Lane, Rickengate. So that is a 'wrong 'un'.

Well done to GeoffE and the others who found the Richardson marriage.

That marriage for 1861 would seem to be a strong possibility, given the other census information you have passed on.  I was looking far too early in the records, it seems they married after being together for a long while.

On my last trip to the Carlisle Record Office, just on an off chance I decided to look for all Marthas born about 1824 in the Haughton adn the Orton Parish Records.

I found Martha Richardson, christened on Boxing Day 1824, daughter of Thomas and Margaret Richardson (nee Twentyman), of Dalston. Of course I had no idea at that time if this was a possibility or not.

I had never found the marriage that Geoff has found.

The two people on the marriage cert. I bought were Robert Bell, Draper of Bread St and Martha Beswick, Spinster of Church Street. These are not right, my Bell's were farmers or at least farm workers.

Barbara, how did you get the Richardson connection, what made you seek Richardsons on the census?

It seems that Martha has been breeding a bit 'afore she got married, maybe they were living ‘in tally’ as me Mam used to call it.

My Robert Bell's father was William Bell born Wetherall Carlisle circa 1797 and married Jane Dunn in Carlisle on 13.12.1817.

The Census records for 1841 and 1851 seem to be on the right track for Martha’s family.

I need to start working out why the delayed marriage, and whether the children are actually on the BMD as Richardson. I’ll also have a dig about on the IGI and see if I can come up with any matches.

Once again, many thanks, I now have something more to work on.

Regards,

Gerry

[GeoffE]

I was looking far too early in the records, it seems they married after being together for a long while.

I'm not sure they had been "together for a long while" - have we found evidence of this?  I think the RICHARDSON daughter "Margt 28" in 1851 was the same person as "Martha 18" in 1841, so was still with her parents at that point.