Author Topic: Irish in English Army WW1  (Read 5798 times)

Offline scrimnet

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 06 December 07 01:44 GMT (UK) »
I was just using them as examples of "hate" figures....The main thrust of my points were to agree with points raised...not least by your good self!  ;)

My other half has a VERY "Celtic Fringe" sounding name....All of her lot certainly served  in the British Army...

One mustn't forget that the UVF started as volunteer Kitchener bn's...

One more charge and then be dumb,
            When the forts of Folly fall,
        May the victors when they come
            Find my body near the wall.

Offline Frazer

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 06 December 07 02:28 GMT (UK) »
This being an item in the WW1 section, I think that for the sake of accuracy it is necessary to distinguish between Crown forces that existed during the period in question and those that didn't.  Incidentally, the 'Tans and the B Specials were set up as supplementary to the Police.  Many of the republican volunteers would have had relatives, even siblings, in the regular army.

I might as well take this opportunity to air my other gripe about this thread, i.e. that although Irish people born at that time would have been citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, people in Ireland usually see a clear distinction between "Great Britain" (the combination of England, Scotland and Wales) and the UK which included Ireland.  There might not have been any official distinction between the two terms, but I find it just a little irksome to read that my ancestors were British.   I don't mean to offend anyone but I can't find a more diplomatic way of saying that.  :)

Offline Christopher

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 06 December 07 13:34 GMT (UK) »
The term British tends to refer to people born in Great Britain.
I must be an Irish member of the United Kingdom as I'm not an English, Scots or Welsh person 8)

Offline neil1821

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 06 December 07 16:06 GMT (UK) »
Leaving aside what should be the "correct" term re Irish/English/British/citizen of the UK, for purely practical reasons when it comes to ancestor hunting it's necessary to use the official terminology or whatever term was used at the time.

You always need to know (1) where the records are to be found and (2) what search terms to use.

For example, looking for a Irish soldier ancestor in WW1 or before then of course its important to realise you're searching for British Army records located in the British National Archives.

As Frazer said, likewise I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that.  :)
But it means the difference between success and failure in a search, and honestly I have been asked questions before by people who wondered why they couldn't find anything!  ::)
Name interests: Boulton, Murrell, Lock, Croxton, Skinner, Blewett, Tonkin, Trathen.
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Offline Frazer

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 06 December 07 16:30 GMT (UK) »
With respect, Christopher, you can call yourself anything you wish, but the fact remains that Great Britain was and is the combined countries of England, Scotland and Wales.  I have never seen any reference to the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland/Northern Ireland.

I don't intend getting into a political debate about this.  I am merely pointing out that my own parents whose known ancestry was 100% indigenous Irish and who were born before Irish independence would have been deeply offended had anyone told them that they or their parents were British - just as offended, no doubt, as anyone born during the WW2 occupation of the Channel Islands would have been had they been told that they were German.

Like an earlier contributor, I don't want to be pedantic, but out of respect for the many Irish people who endured great suffering in the name of Irish freedom I feel bound to point out that it is an insult to them (and offensive to me) to have them declared forever British.  In common with countless other Irish people, I had forebears who served in WW1 and they were no less Irish than I am regardless of the prevailing political situation at the time of their birth.

And Neil, I feel fairly confident that any Irish person researching their roots is well and truly aware that the country was part of the UK during WW1.  You would, indeed, be researching the British archives but that still wouldn't make the person British.

Offline neil1821

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 06 December 07 16:58 GMT (UK) »
Quote
And Neil, I feel fairly confident that any Irish person researching their roots is well and truly aware that the country was part of the UK during WW1.  You would, indeed, be researching the British archives but that still wouldn't make the person British.


It's not just Irish nationals with Irish roots Frazer, plenty of people all round the world research their Irish roots as I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
And I can assure you they're not all immediately aware of the historical Irish/British distinctions.

Anyway, I didn't intend getting into a political/historical debate.
Just making a practical point based on some people I've dealt with in the past.
 :)
Name interests: Boulton, Murrell, Lock, Croxton, Skinner, Blewett, Tonkin, Trathen.
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Offline Frazer

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 06 December 07 20:52 GMT (UK) »
I take your point, Neil.  I agree that there's no need to get political but facts are facts, and my forebears shouldn't have their nationality denied due to the location of a set of archives.  Common courtesy demands otherwise.  I have enjoyed this thread.

Apart from our military ancestors, at least we have in common the fact that none of our countries could manage to produce a football team capable of participating in Euro 2008.  (Soccer/football).
 ;)

Offline neil1821

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 06 December 07 22:48 GMT (UK) »
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Apart from our military ancestors, at least we have in common the fact that none of our countries could manage to produce a football team capable of participating in Euro 2008.  (Soccer/football).

How true, sadly  ;D ;D
Speaking just for myself, whether it's football, rugby or anything else I always tend to identify with the Celtic nations over England. That's my west Cornish roots coming out!

 8)
Name interests: Boulton, Murrell, Lock, Croxton, Skinner, Blewett, Tonkin, Trathen.
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Offline Leofric

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Re: Irish in English Army WW1
« Reply #26 on: Friday 07 December 07 16:01 GMT (UK) »
Well, just to keep the pot boiling, I've fished out the Attestation papers of my great uncle who served in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. (Born in Co. Cork)

He joined in 1898, and printed on the front page are a number of questions to be answered before attestation, the third of which is:

Are you a British subject? and the reply was "Yes".

So, he was Irish, but considered British too, and why not?

I'm off down the pub now...