Author Topic: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2  (Read 72914 times)

Offline Reiver

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #126 on: Sunday 21 October 07 23:59 BST (UK) »
Some more births, marriages, deaths and census returns.

Can anybody think or know of any more we should have?


Birth   1897 DecQ  Eris Ruby Butterworth Wandsworth RD
Death 1887 SepQ  Zilpha Butterworth age 34   Lambeth RD

Marriage 1876
SepQ  Joseph Steads Butterworth m Zilpha Ormerod    Bethnal Green RD
Marriage 1891 MarQ Joseph Steads Butterworth m Eliza Annie Higgs    St. Saviour Southwark RD

1881  RG11/574  f 93  p 9
Bermondsey Southwark London
139, Spa Road
Joseph S Butterworth   H  M  26   Teacher                 Ely, Cambridgeshire
Zilpha Butterworth      W M  28    Married Woman   Bethnal Green, London

1891  RG12/439  f 72  p 10

Battersea London
71 Parma Crescent
Joseph Steads Butterworth  Head  U  36   Teacher    Cambridge  Ely
Eliza Jane              “             Wife  U   25                   Hampshire  Shirley

1901 RG 13/578  f 68 p 11
Cheam, Surrey
3, North End Place
Joseph S Butterworth   H   M   46  Certificated Teacher <  ?  >      Cambridge  Ely <?>

Regards
Reiver

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #127 on: Monday 22 October 07 00:15 BST (UK) »


Thanks Reiver !  .... I don't know if we can get this family going either ?  ::) ::)

I feel like I'm going around in circles ... does everybody feel the same - or is it just me ??

Annie  :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #128 on: Monday 22 October 07 03:31 BST (UK) »



A wonderful person who types faster than me ..... just typed this out for me !!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

DEATHS IN STATE OF VICTORIA
Registered by  John Leopold RATH

No10848
Description
When and where died    2 Jun 1966
Usual Place of Residence  Port Melbourne - 163 Bridge Street, Port Melbourne.
Name and Surname   Mary Elizabeth THORNTON
Occupation   Home Duties
Sex and age   Female, 93 years
Cause of death  Bronchopneumonia - 7 days
                          Myocardial degeneration - years
                           Aterioclerosis - years
Legally qualified medical practition by whom certified - J. Goldberg
When he last saw deceased  2nd June 1966
Name and surname of father and mother [maiden name if known] with occupation.     Unknown ABBEY   Unknown
Signature of Registration Office    As above
Date & Where registered    Heidelberg, 9th June 1966
If burial registered      6th June, 1966
When and where        Melbourne General Cemetery, Carlton
Undertaker by whom certified or names of witnesses   R McKenzie, R Holten & W McKenzie.
Where born,                England
and how long in Australian States   15 years in Victoria
If deceased was married
Where                 England
At what age        27 years
and
To Whom             Hugh THORNTON
Conjugal Condition at
date of death       WIDOW
Issue in order birth,
the names and ages     Hugh Spencer,  55 years


Now here is the death reg for the son - Vic Death Index

THORNTON  Hugh Spencer Abbe ( would be Abbey I would imagine ) 
Father - Euclid Hope Bu ( must be Butterworth )
Mother - Fary Elizabeth ( would be Mary )
Age 72   Year  1983  Reg No 16598
at PORT ( would be Port Melbourne I would imagine )

PS .......... I know the name of the informant ... but I withheld that !  :-\
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #129 on: Monday 22 October 07 03:46 BST (UK) »

Can't find a GRO index record for Euclid's 2nd marriage, to Mary Elizabeth Abbey. I wonder why he changed his name to Hugh Thornton

He didn't !! ....... Mary Elizabeth married again to a man named Hugh Thornton and went to live in Australia !

Quote
Did Euclid H have any children with Mary Abbey?

Yes !! .... as above but his new father ( Hugh Thornton ) must have adopted him !!

I posted a request on the Australian board to find out when she went !!  :)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263273.from1193020524/topicseen.html#msg1486235

Annie  :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I


Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #130 on: Monday 22 October 07 07:33 BST (UK) »
This could be the birth of Mary's son Hugh :

Q1 1911

ABBEY Hugh S B       Bristol   6a   114     

Perhaps it's Hugh Spence Butterworth Abbey ?

Spence was Mary's mother's maiden name.

UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #131 on: Monday 22 October 07 08:30 BST (UK) »
This is my first foray into these exhaustive (exhausting?) threads so if I'm bringing up red herrings, or if I haven't seen pertinent information which has already been posted, please just tell me to get back in my box  ;D

Another possible birth (IF Hugh was born in England) might be:
THORNTON Hugh A (Abbey?), March quarter 1911, Meriden?

I'm thinking that the Victorian death cert of Hugh Spencer Abbe THORNTON is needed - to find out where he was born and also how long he had been in Australia.

If Mary's death cert is correct:
a) she was born in 1873.
Probably the following;
Paul ABBEY m Mary SPENCE Jun qtr 1872, Dewbury
Mary Elizabeth ABBEY birth Jun qtr 1873, Wakefield
1881 census, Mary aged 7 is with her parents in Lofthouse cum Carlton (Paul is a Coal Miner)

b) she was married to Hugh THORNTON in England at the age of 27
If this is correct, it means she was married in 1900 i.e. before she went to the US with Euclid in 1910 and 11 years before the birth of Hugh.
That is, it wouldn't have been a subsequent marriage to a Hugh THORNTON who kindly took on Euclid's child but rather a case of Euclid's child being registered (wherever this happened) under Mary's official (married) name (THORNTON) at the time of his birth.
Unfortunately I can't find an appropriate THORNTON-ABBEY marriage.

c) she had been in Australia for 15 years i.e. arrived ca 1951 (if this is true, one has to wonder why she came to Australia at the age of 78).

Possible searches?
1. 1901 England census for Mary Elizabeth ABBEY or Mary Elizabeth THORNTON (b Yorkshire 1873)

2. 1920 and later US censuses for Euclid (and for Mary Elizabeth and for young Hugh THORNTON)

JAP

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #132 on: Monday 22 October 07 08:57 BST (UK) »
Mary Abbey is a schoolteacher in 1901 still living with her parents RG13/4292 f133 p39.

One of the LDS submitters gave date for the death Hugh or Euclid Butterworth or Thornton in May 1932. I wonder if this is him:

Q2 1932

Thornton, Hugh  aged 72 Keynsham 5c 638


The age would be exactly right for Euclid Hope Butterworth.

I would surmise from all this that Euclid left his wife Florence c.1910 and ran away with Mary Abbey (one of his teaching staff), changing his name so as not to be found. It would explain why his name isn't in the Register of Teachers.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #133 on: Monday 22 October 07 09:08 BST (UK) »
A possible:

SS Hobsons Bay dep Southampton for Melbourne 29 March 1933:

Thornton, Mrs Mary -  last address Rough Moor Farm, Shaw(?), Swindon age 60
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: Are You Sitting Comfortably Part 2
« Reply #134 on: Monday 22 October 07 10:39 BST (UK) »
Hello ShaunJ,

Thanks very much!

I was a bit concerned about Annie's suggestion that Mary had married a kindly Mr THORNTON after Hugh's birth, and that Mr THORNTON had taken on Euclid's son Hugh - that didn't quite seem to gel with the death cert.

I like your scenario  :)

Mary's length of time in Australia on the dc might be wrong - or perhaps son Hugh had migrated to Australia and, after the death of her 'husband' (Euclid under an alias?), she visited Hugh and then later decided to migrate permanently.  Who knows ...

Roughmoor, Swindon can be found on the www.streetmap.co.uk site - Shaw, Swindon is about 1km south.  And there's mention of Roughmoor Farm at:
http://www.swindonhistory.co.uk/b.htm

I wondered if the various places suggested any links:
- possible birthplaces for Hugh in 1911 being Bristol (Gloucestershire) or Meriden (Warwickshire).  {The Meriden one is probably irrelevant as there's a marriage of a Hugh THORNTON in Meriden in 1908 (Edith Jane WILKS on same page) and the birth of an Eleanor Mary THORNTON in Meriden in 1909.}
- possible deathplace for 'Hugh' snr in 1932 being Keynsham (Somerset) - yes, close to Bristol.
- residence of Mary 'THORNTON' in 1933 being Swindon (Wiltshire); well, perhaps she'd gone to stay with friends/relatives following Hugh's death.

The Victorian death cert of Hugh Spencer Abbe THORNTON could possibly answer everything ...

Regards,

JAP