Author Topic: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)  (Read 12091 times)

Offline MaryA

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Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
« Reply #18 on: Friday 31 August 07 14:18 BST (UK) »

Can't find a birth for an Edward to George and Marwin though; it seems that they didn't make a habit of registering their children, as so far I've only found Ann in 1838.  :(

MT ;)

Don't forget that civil registration only began in 1837 and Edward would have been born prior to then, also John, so it's baptisms that you need to find and I think it's Pickering you need to look for them.

Seems like you need the 1871 entries now to fill in the gaps.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)

Offline MaryA

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Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
« Reply #19 on: Friday 31 August 07 15:38 BST (UK) »
1871
49 The Abbey, Rosedale East Side, Yorkshire
Blacksmith Joseph Page and his wife Mary, and son with a servant
Edward HOldgate Lodger Widr 38 Ag Lab Yorksh. Kirby Moorside
RG10; Piece: 4840; Folio: 57; Page: 45

This might be one you might want to think about .....
West Field Gate, Southowram, Yorkshire
Farmer and Butcher Abraham Greenwood, wife and family
John Holgate Boarder Unm 30 Free Church Minister Yorkshire Thornton
RG10; Piece: 4388; Folio: 17; Page: 27
Age is out so possibly not.

There is a possible George
District Canterbury Barracks, Northgate, Kent
George Holgate Unmarried 26 Soldiers 2/16 B?? born Yorkshire
RG10; Piece: 970; Folio: 39; Page: 6

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)

Offline BassinghamTerrier

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Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
« Reply #20 on: Friday 31 August 07 15:46 BST (UK) »
Righto Mary - here's what I've discovered today.

IGI baptisms/christenings:
    [li]Edward = nowhere to be seen![/li]
    [li]John = 8th June 1836, Kirkbymoorside, North Yorks. and he's a Holdgate![/li]
    [li]Ann = nowhere to be seen, BUT there is a birth registered in Pickering of an Anne Holdgate, March 1/4, 1838 Pickering, vol 24 page 355[/li]
    [li]Elizabeth = 16th April 1840, Ellerburn, North Yorks., and she is a Holdgate too![/li]
    [li]James = 5th June 1842, Ellerburn, North Yorks., although he and his parents are Holgate.[/li]
    [li]Margaret = 15th September 1844, Ellerburn, North Yorks., another with parents as Holgate[/li]
    [li]George Jnr. = 29th August 1847, Ellerburn, North Yorks., and more Holgates![/li]
    [li]William = 27th November 1849 (he's a new one!) Ellerburn, North Yorks., and yet again, Holgate[/li]
    [li]Mary Jane = 28th November 1852, Ellerburn, North Yorks., but at least she's a Holdgate![/li]
    [/list]

    From all this, I can concur the following ...

    • I cannot link an Edward Holdgate to the parents, George and Marwin - all the others listed above DO have those parents;
    • Mary Jane's age on the 1871 census - where she is staying with Elizabeth who is now married to Thomas Sedman - is FIVE years out! She is 23 there, but should be only 18! (and yes - it's DEFINITELY her.)
    • William isn't on the 1851 census; where is he? Dead?
    • With the exception of Ann, who conversely doesn't appear on the IGI, they don't seem to have registered ANY of their other children
    • Where on earth is Elizabeth (by now a Sedman) on the 1861 census??

    I also found the birth of George Senior (8th February 1811) and his christening (17th July 1811) both in Pickering - they certainly delayed the christenings didn't they?  :-\

    Also got HIS parents - George Holdgate married Charlotte Bell in Pickering, 26th July 1808.

    So that's quite a lot, really!  :D

    MT ;)
    Researching ...
    PASHBY in Scarborough, Levisham, and outlying area
    SEDMAN in Scarborough, Scalby, Everley and Hackness
    BIRD in Easington, Patrington, Sculcoates and Hull
    DOBSON in Edinburgh, Wakefield, York and Scarborough
    SUTTON in Wintringham and Scarborough
    ROSS in Edinburgh and outlying districts

    Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

    Offline MaryA

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #21 on: Saturday 01 September 07 09:10 BST (UK) »
    Not that it will get you anywhere but this birth is probably Edward's daughter

    Betsy Holdgate Q2 1856 Pickering 3[5]6 9?

    Anne Holdgate         Q1 1838 Pickering 24/355
    George Holdgate     Q3 1847 Pickering 24/473
    William Holldgate (sic)     Q4 1849 Pickering 24/486
    Mary Jane Holdgate Q2 1851 Pickering 24/580

    Death of William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/343

    Poor chap, the spelling of Holldgate in BOTH birth and death entries makes me think that they were both done at the same time, the death being in the same quarter would also point to that.

    One or two points I think you have to remember - the IGI is not complete. When George and Marwin married they may have lived in a town whose church has not yet been transcribed by the LDS and then moved later.  If you really wanted to know about Edward I would suggest that you check all churches in the area where they might possibly have lived.  You will hopefully find this site useful for finding some of them, http://www.genuki.org.uk/ and either write/visit the local Record Office to ask if they have the baptisms or even ask the LDS if they have them on film, just not transcribed on the site - remember that some churches just gave father's names so Marwin may not be mentioned.  I must admit I'd be curious enough about Edward to investigate this further if it were me.

    We don't know who wrote the names down when the babies were baptised - the minister probably wrote what they thought was the correct spelling, the parents possibly may not have even been able to write so it went unchecked.

    In the early years after civil registration began, even after it became compulsory children often went unregistered, mainly from lack of funds.  You can imagine if there was a choice between feeding the children or registering one of them, what do you think won?

    As for the 1861 census for Elizabeth, if you are sure it's her husband that you have alone, then the scenario could be that she was visiting somebody and unexpectedly stayed overnight.  If that family had already completed their form she probably wouldn't have been bothered, maybe thinking that her husband would have noted her as being at home.  The husband however, thinking she would be enumerated where she was visiting didn't bother writing her name on the form and so she might have been missed.  It's like the reverse of often finding children listed with both grandparents and parents on the same night, difficult to prove that they are the same person but imagine little ones clamouring to stay with grandma rather than going home and I would imagine that's how mistakes are made. 

    When it's a whole family missing that's a different matter and I usually believe that they are there somewhere, just a case of finding them however badly they have been either enumerated or transcribed.

    You are lucky to have a few more names in the family to help pin them down - my own great grandma went unregistered in 1845 and no matter where I look I can find no baptism, the only possible marriage for her father seems rather unlikely and is nowhere to be found in the 1851 census.  Later on she is working in various houses as a servant, so I have nothing to connect her to anybody, poor little orphan  :'(

    Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)


    Offline BassinghamTerrier

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #22 on: Saturday 01 September 07 12:52 BST (UK) »
    George Holdgate     Q3 1847 Pickering 24/473
    William Holldgate (sic)     Q4 1849 Pickering 24/486
    Mary Jane Holdgate Q2 1851 Pickering 24/580

    Death of William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/343

    Thanks for those, Mary; I really don't know how I managed to miss those registrations. Just careless, I suppose!  ::)

    I also take your point about reasons as to why Elizabeth isn't on the 1861 census - I have a whole family of Birds who are absent on the very same census.

    MT ;)
    Researching ...
    PASHBY in Scarborough, Levisham, and outlying area
    SEDMAN in Scarborough, Scalby, Everley and Hackness
    BIRD in Easington, Patrington, Sculcoates and Hull
    DOBSON in Edinburgh, Wakefield, York and Scarborough
    SUTTON in Wintringham and Scarborough
    ROSS in Edinburgh and outlying districts

    Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

    Offline MaryA

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #23 on: Saturday 01 September 07 15:42 BST (UK) »
    I have a whole family of Birds who are absent on the very same census.

    Perhaps they flew south for the winter  ;D
    Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)

    Offline BassinghamTerrier

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #24 on: Sunday 02 September 07 13:42 BST (UK) »
    I assume you have the marriage -
    George Holdgate married Marwin Dennis 20 July 1833 Pickering

    which does just about give time for a birth of Edward before John ......

    Up to you to confirm all this, but assuming that he is another child, this is the 1861 census for him

    Wretton, Yorkshire
    Farmer John Atkinson and his wife Sarah, with children, including
    Edward Holdgate Son in Law Mar 27 General Servant Yorkshire Kirbymoorside
    Hannah Wife M 28 House keeper Yorkshire Rosedale
    Betsy daur 5 Scholar Yorkshire Wretton
    RG9; Piece: 3642; Folio: 134; Page: 5

    I've also found an Edward Holdgate in 1881, born in Kirkbymoorside, 1834, but he has a wife called Elizabeth (nee Otterburn)

    Now then ... this has really puzzled me, but I've done a little bit of spadework and come up with the following.

    I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin, but let's suppose that ...
    • 1855 Edward Holgate (b.1834-ish) marries Hannah Atkinson in Middleton, North Yorks, Dec 1/4
    • 1856 Betsy Holdgate is registered in Pickering, June 1/4, 9d page 356, and is christened 18th March 1856 at Middleton
    • 1857 John Holdgate is born registered in Pickering, December 1/4, 9d page 354, and is christened 13th December 1857 at Middleton
    • 1861 Edward Holdgate and Hannah appear on the census with daughter Betsy, as you have already posted.
    • 1863 Hannah Holdgate dies, registered Pickering, June 1/4 , 9d 275
    • 1875 Edward Holdgate marries Elizabeth Otterburn in Pickering, September 1/4, 9d 648, appearing as man and wife on the 1881 census

    Oh, and by the way - the 1861 census for Edward would be Wrelton, not Wretton.  ;)

    And then there's always ...
    • 1862 John Holdgate marries Christiana Harrison, registered in Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 542
    • 1866 Margaret Holdgate, registered in Pickering, Dec 1/4, 9d 391
    • 1869 George Holdgate, registered in Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 413
    • 1871 Mary Ann Holdgate, registered Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 421
    • 1874 Mary Holgate, christened in Ellerburn, 23rd May
    • 1874 Christiana Hollgate dies, registered in Pickering, September 1/4, 9d 305, aged 39
    • 1877 John Hollgate marries Jane Leafe in Pickering, December 1/4, 9d 917, and they appear on the 1881 census with all the children AND Jane's daughter, Jane Ann Scafe

    I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though; the marriage gives Jane's name as LEAFE, but on the 1881 census the step-daughter's name is SCAFE. However, there is a JANE ANN LEAF birth registered in Pickering in 1862, June 1/4, 9d 400, giving the correct age of 18 in 1881, so I guess that the Mormon 1881 transcription must be wrong.

    You may also notice that John's children mirror those of his father - a Margaret, George, (Mary) Ann, and Mary.

    PHEW!!!  :o

    MT ;)
    Researching ...
    PASHBY in Scarborough, Levisham, and outlying area
    SEDMAN in Scarborough, Scalby, Everley and Hackness
    BIRD in Easington, Patrington, Sculcoates and Hull
    DOBSON in Edinburgh, Wakefield, York and Scarborough
    SUTTON in Wintringham and Scarborough
    ROSS in Edinburgh and outlying districts

    Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

    Offline MaryA

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #25 on: Sunday 02 September 07 17:15 BST (UK) »
    Quote
    I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin
    Are you going to get the marriage cert to see the father's name?

    Quote
    Wrelton, not Wretton
      I have to rely on peoples local knowledge, I can only transcribe as I see it.

    Quote
    I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though
      You just wanted to see it for yourself didn't you?  Well it's definitely Leafe!
    Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)

    Offline BassinghamTerrier

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    Re: 1861 look-up please - Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holdgate)
    « Reply #26 on: Sunday 02 September 07 18:12 BST (UK) »
    Quote
    I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin
    Are you going to get the marriage cert to see the father's name?

    No - as I've said before, it's a bit of an extended twig on a branch of the tree; but I might just have another way around it ...

    Quote
    Wrelton, not Wretton
     I have to rely on peoples local knowledge, I can only transcribe as I see it.

    Not getting at you there - just pointing it out!  :D

    Quote
    I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though
      You just wanted to see it for yourself didn't you?  Well it's definitely Leafe!

    No, but I'm grateful for the info!

    By the way - don't you think that I did awfully well to find and put together all of that info?  ;D

    MT ;)
    Researching ...
    PASHBY in Scarborough, Levisham, and outlying area
    SEDMAN in Scarborough, Scalby, Everley and Hackness
    BIRD in Easington, Patrington, Sculcoates and Hull
    DOBSON in Edinburgh, Wakefield, York and Scarborough
    SUTTON in Wintringham and Scarborough
    ROSS in Edinburgh and outlying districts

    Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk