Author Topic: drownings in the thames  (Read 20306 times)

Offline Darian Zam

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Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #153 on: Friday 27 June 25 18:38 BST (UK) »
Public comments Photo of William Tyree I (1820-89) - Graeme Tyree, posted 2 years ago

This one has been a problem to identify because of the man's appearance making it hard to fit his age with members of the family who were in Nelson. However lighting and retouching have probably made him appear more youthful than he is.
Quite possible it is William Tyree Sr. There is a lot of similarity in appearance with his brother Frederick Jeremiah Tyree. The latest it could have been taken is 1889 at which time he would have been 69 years old. This man looks to be in his late forties to late fifties, and the men's fashion he is wearing indicates late 1860s to late 1870s,
If Graeme is correct I suspect this was taken at the establishment of Tyree Studio in 1878 when William was 58. However I do not know what information Grame is basing this identification on as he has not provided any evidence.
I have backed and forthed heaps of times on this issue myself between 2017-2025 as you can see from comments here:

https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000000020173155516&photo_id=6000000062713870919&position=0

I have now switched it back to being Willim Tyree Sr's profile picture yet again. Graeme is likley right, I just don't know what he is basing this on and his judgement has been incorrect before from lack of cross-checking and making assumptions.



[/quote]

Quoting myself just to clarify that you were right, Darian, and Graeme was wrong.

This is Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross). The different hairstyle was adopted later on by Mary Ann and also her sister Ellen Smith Batchelor (née Cross) as can be seen in other photographs, including two with them together. They look very similar as young women and as older women as well.

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P36503/tyree-wedding-group

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/58595/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/132088/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/13164/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/142270/tyree-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33833/tyree-mrs-w

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33834/tyree-mrs-w


And 3 photos of Polly with Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross) or Mrs. William Tyree:

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/33245/tyree-house

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31443/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31442/tyree


Wrongly identified in this article as "cook and servant"

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20141004/282982513200879?srsltid=AfmBOorEUyxCqKFPcopv1uznchy6hK9mCm0HGCXCwFlXFTWaNYLQiVM3

Polly's father, William Tyree Sn

 https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/34386/tyree#

[/quote]

Offline Darian Zam

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Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #154 on: Friday 27 June 25 18:48 BST (UK) »
Good spotting on the portraits of Helen Batchelor nee Cross. I hadn't thought to look - or rather - we weren't really sure which sister it was, out of a few she had.
We already combed through Fred Tyree's wedding portrait and had seen them in there. Most of the other people are members of the Scott family (I haven't looked for them in the NPM collection either). Only so far out you can spread.
Yes we quite recently decided that the pictures around the house and garden are not sister-in-law Grace Beveridge Tyree after all but sister-in-law Polly Tyree.


[/quote]

Quoting myself just to clarify that you were right, Darian, and Graeme was wrong.

This is Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross). The different hairstyle was adopted later on by Mary Ann and also her sister Ellen Smith Batchelor (née Cross) as can be seen in other photographs, including two with them together. They look very similar as young women and as older women as well.

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P36503/tyree-wedding-group

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/58595/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/132088/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/13164/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/142270/tyree-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33833/tyree-mrs-w

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33834/tyree-mrs-w


And 3 photos of Polly with Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross) or Mrs. William Tyree:

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/33245/tyree-house

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31443/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31442/tyree


Wrongly identified in this article as "cook and servant"

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20141004/282982513200879?srsltid=AfmBOorEUyxCqKFPcopv1uznchy6hK9mCm0HGCXCwFlXFTWaNYLQiVM3

Polly's father, William Tyree Sn

 https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/34386/tyree#

[/quote]
[/quote]

Offline Darian Zam

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Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #155 on: Friday 27 June 25 20:26 BST (UK) »
We haven't been able to figure out who he is yet. Possibly Henry Fred  Tyree (b 1921). Nobody else fits. Has to be someone in Nelson and he looks like that branch of the family, if a bit of a toothless  hayseed.


Thanks Darian. Last one, do you know who this lad is?

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects?query=%22tyree+man%22

Offline Darian Zam

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Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #156 on: Wednesday 06 August 25 11:02 BST (UK) »
I've  been wrapping this up with some virtual congratulatory back patting and conclusive thoughts. I want to thank everyone who contributed to research, solving this family mystery. Certainly one of the most interesting outcomes I've had in 15 years as a social historian.

I had  further thoughts in finalizing  notes. I find putting everything into a chronological timeline brings clarity and reveals things you may not have realized otherwise.

I ruminated on why I feel Polly's family must have known about all of it and chose to let it go in the hopes that a family scandal would just conveniently go away. More than that, I feel that it was to do with her familial relationships. Something was going on. The most obvious  is they may have been upset that she decided to leave them to live in Australia with William Tyree Jr. and wife Mary Ann Tyree, whom she seemed to have formed quite a bond.
Or they simply didn't want her to go, even forbid her or risk being cut off from financial support, and she left anyway. Another thought is that she may not have been entirely capable of responsible decision making and you can take that any way you like. There's many possibilities.

Why I think this is given the localized Tyree family branch which had several illegitimacies - that aspect obviously wasn't an issue to them.
The only thing that had changed over a generation is  they were better known, successful, some even wealthy.

What happened in the end may be a case of hard feelings, 'she got what she deserved' for her actions, in her family's view.

The reason why it  doesn't add up is because her brother Alfred Tyree had offices in London by that time. and whilst not frequent visitors, he and his wife Alice nee Norman did occasionally go there and did  for sure in 1905.
If anything William Jr. and Mary Ann Tyree being concerned at Polly’s  whereabouts or thinking something was possibly amiss, would have asked Alfred and/or his office staff to try to find her since they had not heard from her (we actually don't know if she corresponded with William and Mary Ann between  leaving and death, logic denotes not).
At the very least someone in London likrly saw her name in the paper and thought I wonder if that is Alfred's missing sister Mary, especially if she was known to be uncontactable by a certain point. 

The fact that the Tyree family could afford to get her disinterred/re-interred or repatriated but didn’t denotes they did not want to.Devil's advocate, we definitely now know she was in a mass grave in Woolwich Cemetery, being ‘unknown’ at the time, so that may have posed a complication) There’s no way that even if they didn't know about it at the time, they would have known at some time  soon afterwards. 
One realization I had from the timeline set out chronologically is, that if the press knew by at least 28 Apr 1901 she was ' a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyree', then why was she still buried as unidentified? She had been identified.
 
Polly also had more than one family member she could have asked for money if she was destitute. It makes me wonder if she did ask her parents and they refused. There were others she could have asked. Most likely she didn't want anyone to know what the situation was exactly.

To me from a psychological point of view her words and actions upon leaving the boarding house for a final time are  specifically that of someone who has made the decision to take their  life. It very much aligns with studies of cases; and  the kind of statement  by someone whose decision has typically already been made and they're kind of in a fuge/faux euphoric state at this point. There is often atoning, apology, unelicited fondness expressed.

And the fact Arthur was present and complicit in the words and actions. indicated to me it was a pact. They may have even taken something before entering the water such as  Laudanum. Someone speculated here what I also thought as possibility regarding the fabric stuffed in her mouth; that it could have been for her dentures if they were ill fitting or causing irritation, or it could have been to assist her own death.

I also feel John Grant knew of the situation. Arthur’s  uncle knew he was missing therefore Grant’s parents knew he was missing. They told him, or vice versa he had seen Arthur being cloe by and knew what the situation was.It’s that or the uncle was psychic.

The Grants may not have heard from Arthur after his return in the day of the WSL as they say, but they also didn’t look for him. Clearly given Arthur's first task upon return was immediately going home this indicates  urgency. I think he returned on Jan 5, went home and told them about the situation; about Polly and the pregnancy. John was by then a deacon in the local church and this would have been hugely embarrassing. They asked him to leave the family home, I suspect.
 
It’s the same old situation of a millennia. People bring children into the world and they are emotionally unequipped and too immature to think about what that means in terms of unconditional love for your offspring. Or simply self-centred. If you are not prepared to accept outcomes outside of your expectations, then don’t become a parent.
Polly and Arthur may not have died, if they at least they felt there was someone they could go to for some help. But clearly they did not feel they were able to and the future was bleak. Cue a very unfortunate end.