Author Topic: drownings in the thames  (Read 8338 times)

Offline PatLac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #144 on: Thursday 19 June 25 02:36 BST (UK) »
Darian,

Can you think of who these Tyrees might be? I had a look at the family tree on FS and I couldn't find a better option for Mr. Tyree, Mrs. Tyree, and Miss Tyree, than William Tyree Jn, his wife Mary Ann nee Cross, and Polly! As I understand it, they moved from NZ to Sydney in 1898 (change of address from NZ to Sydney seen on patent files).

 The Australian Star (Sydney, NSW : 1887 - 1909)  Thu 8 Sept 1898
 Page 4
 SHIPPING.

ARRIVALS — September 7.
Monowai, str., 3433 tons, Captain H. W. H.
Chattleld, from Dunedin, Lyttelton and Wel
lington. Passengers: Messrs. Edmonds, J. P.
Smith, Coutts, C. M'Donald, Hill, J. R. Thorn,
Sommervllie, Hirst, Gibson, Master Dashe, A.
Hail; J. C. Redmond, Gummoor, Skerrett, C.
Taylor, Solomons, J. Hoore, R. N. Fairbanlt,
C.P. Trevelyan Webb, J. Sinclair, Tyree, J.
G. Selby, Denby, F. Truman, Struther, D.
O'Brien, Congdon, F. W. Fairthorne, Webb,
Mesdames Edmonds and maid, C. Magnus,
W. E. Burt, Hirst, Gibson, Toy and child,
Jefferd, Abbott, M'Dairmond, Rawnsley,
Docksray, C. W. Windehall, Cody and maid,
Webb, Crighton and child, Tyree, Struthers,
Congdon and infant, Allen. Misses Booth,
Burt (2), M'Kinnon, Cousins, Henry, David,
Rawnsley, Elcomb, Sommerville, Roberts,
Tyree, Harrison, Allen; also 39 in the second
cabin; - F. w. Jackson, agent.

Offline PatLac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #145 on: Thursday 19 June 25 20:19 BST (UK) »
I think the 2 Misses Tyree in this newspaper article could be Kate and Polly, one week after their father's death, going to Nelson.

SHIPPING.
Otago Daily Times, Issue 8583, 27 August 1889, Page 1

DEPARTURES.
Retorua, s.s., 576 tonn, Neville, for Northern ports
J Mills, agent. Passengers:For Lyttelton-Mr W
Mill. For Wellington-Miss Parkes.For Nelson-
Misses Tyree (2).

And their brother Edward George and half-brother Alfred Tyree.

SHIPPING.
Otago Daily Times, Issue 8578, 21 August 1889, Page 1

FROM DUNEDIN FOR THE NORTH.--For Christ
church: Mr H S Fish, M.H.R., Messrs George
Polegrove, A Tyree, G H Morrison, W Peters, W
Hawkins, G Thomson, Master E G Tyree, Mrs Wal-
ford

Offline PatLac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #146 on: Saturday 21 June 25 17:15 BST (UK) »
Darian,

Regarding this comment on the Nelson Provincial Museum website, have you been in contact with Graeme? I wonder why he thinks this is Polly's mother? If he's right this photo would have been taken before 1885? And, more importantly, how did he 'guessed' Polly's date of death, 1902? Could this have been the 'official' annoucement of her death by her family?

Ann Catherine Tyree, 3rd wife, nee Baker (1833-85) & daughter, Mary Hodgman Tyree (1872-1902). Mary Ann Cross-Tyree had a different hairstyle, and she was the only wife of William Tyree II (1855-1924). See NPM Tyree 177858.

- Graeme Tyree posted 2 years ago.

Probably Mrs Mary Ann Tyree née Cross (1848-1945), the second wife of photographer William Tyree, and Mary Hodgman (Polly) Tyree (1872-). Polly was the daughter of Ann Catherine Tyree née Baker (1833-1885) and William Tyree, so Mary Ann's sister-in-law.

- Darian Zam posted 8 years ago


https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/41157/tyree

Quoting myself just to clarify that you were right, Darian, and Graeme was wrong.

This is Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross). The different hairstyle was adopted later on by Mary Ann and also her sister Ellen Smith Batchelor (née Cross) as can be seen in other photographs, including two with them together. They look very similar as young women and as older women as well.

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P36503/tyree-wedding-group

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/58595/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/132088/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/13164/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/142270/tyree-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33833/tyree-mrs-w

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33834/tyree-mrs-w


And 3 photos of Polly with Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross) or Mrs. William Tyree:

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/33245/tyree-house

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31443/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31442/tyree


Wrongly identified in this article as "cook and servant"

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20141004/282982513200879?srsltid=AfmBOorEUyxCqKFPcopv1uznchy6hK9mCm0HGCXCwFlXFTWaNYLQiVM3

Polly's father, William Tyree Sn

 https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/34386/tyree#

Offline PatLac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile


Offline Darian Zam

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #148 on: Friday 27 June 25 16:29 BST (UK) »
No, I had noty seen the comment. I don't know why he has come to this conclusion.
Firstly as he points out Anne Catherine Tyree nee Baker was dead by 1885.
If this woman were Anne Tyree, then Mary would be 12-13 years old and she's certainly not that young here. 
The photo Mary Hodgman Tyree holds is I think I've already pointed out George Edwin Field and that was taken in 1893 as it was in a session with his family including the youngest an infant at the time who was born 1893. These were obviously being printed in the studio at the time the portrait of Mary Ann Tyree and Mary Hodgman Tyree was done and she's picked it up.
All that said there are many portraits of this same woman and by appearance and circumstance it is clear she is the wife of William Tyree Jr, not Sr; and that it is Mary Ann Tyree formerly Evans nee Cross. She also appears in more than one portrait with her sisters including Fred Tyree's wedding portrait, as well as in portraits with her only child Jack, and in a portrait taken in Sydney later on in life after she and William Jr had moved there permanently from the late 1890s. 
Anne Catherine Tyree had one known sister Sarah Baker and I doubt she ever set foot in the Antipodes.
 
I do not know why he thinks a woman cannot change her hairstyle over time. Or why he thinks people cannot look very different from photo to photo even taken at the same time; lighting can do some incredible things as well as style changes not to mention a bit of retouching.
 
Three strikes and you're out; that's about 5 so not following up on how he came up with a death date that isn't even correct. It transpires that Doreen Tyree was not the only person to find the correct cause of death and date so not really interested in how he came up with 1902.


Offline Darian Zam

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #149 on: Friday 27 June 25 16:41 BST (UK) »
Have you checked these records?

https://archives.victoria.ac.nz/search?utf8=✓&op%5B%5D=&q%5B%5D=tyree&limit=&field%5B%5D=&from_year%5B%5D=&to_year%5B%5D=&commit=Search

No I haven't. I had quite a bit of correspondence with Pat Brocklenbank and have the article she wrote on all of the members of the family and their photography careers, which was published in a magazine. She really did a great job researching in a time it was much more difficult than now. Les Cleveland I haven't heard of.

I don't know if there are a lot of images here I haven't seen or new info scanning quickly through it, but will pass the link on to a descendant who is doing his own deep dive into it.


Offline PatLac

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #150 on: Friday 27 June 25 16:52 BST (UK) »
Thanks Darian. Last one, do you know who this lad is?

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects?query=%22tyree+man%22

Offline Darian Zam

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #151 on: Friday 27 June 25 17:44 BST (UK) »
Very likely. I know that William Jr. and Mary Ann Tyree migrated to Australia permanently some time between mid 1898- mid 1900. Polly Tyree seems to have had a close relationship with Mary Ann of all her in-laws. I had suspected she may have gone with them, or at the very least had travelled to Sydney to spend time with them first before boarding the Morovian for her fateful journey.

Darian,

Can you think of who these Tyrees might be? I had a look at the family tree on FS and I couldn't find a better option for Mr. Tyree, Mrs. Tyree, and Miss Tyree, than William Tyree Jn, his wife Mary Ann nee Cross, and Polly! As I understand it, they moved from NZ to Sydney in 1898 (change of address from NZ to Sydney seen on patent files).

 The Australian Star (Sydney, NSW : 1887 - 1909)  Thu 8 Sept 1898
 Page 4
 SHIPPING.

ARRIVALS — September 7.
Monowai, str., 3433 tons, Captain H. W. H.
Chattleld, from Dunedin, Lyttelton and Wel
lington. Passengers: Messrs. Edmonds, J. P.
Smith, Coutts, C. M'Donald, Hill, J. R. Thorn,
Sommervllie, Hirst, Gibson, Master Dashe, A.
Hail; J. C. Redmond, Gummoor, Skerrett, C.
Taylor, Solomons, J. Hoore, R. N. Fairbanlt,
C.P. Trevelyan Webb, J. Sinclair, Tyree, J.
G. Selby, Denby, F. Truman, Struther, D.
O'Brien, Congdon, F. W. Fairthorne, Webb,
Mesdames Edmonds and maid, C. Magnus,
W. E. Burt, Hirst, Gibson, Toy and child,
Jefferd, Abbott, M'Dairmond, Rawnsley,
Docksray, C. W. Windehall, Cody and maid,
Webb, Crighton and child, Tyree, Struthers,
Congdon and infant, Allen. Misses Booth,
Burt (2), M'Kinnon, Cousins, Henry, David,
Rawnsley, Elcomb, Sommerville, Roberts,
Tyree, Harrison, Allen; also 39 in the second
cabin; - F. w. Jackson, agent.

Offline Darian Zam

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: drownings in the thames
« Reply #152 on: Friday 27 June 25 18:00 BST (UK) »
Thanks Alan. I will take your (and AI's) word for it.


55 days? That's insane. Well it was really more of a sight-seeing trip than A to B  then.

The Moravian had a speed of 13 knots (see link below). She was a single-screw steamship, but was also a three-master, rigged for sail. My AI friend tells me that for a vessel like this the speed of 13 knots would be achievable under steam power, and under sail power with favourable winds.

The typical sea route from Melbourne is 13,508 nautical miles. If Moravian had maintained the speed of 13 knots continuously the journey would have taken 43 days.

An AI-generated estimate based on the coal capacity and fuel efficiency of similar ships of the time suggests a steaming range of between 3,100 and 3,700 nautical miles. Thus she would probably have relied quite heavily upon sail, and fallen back on steaming when the wind was unfavourable. She would likely have re-coaled in South Africa.

So all in all, a voyage of 55 days doesn't seem unreasonable.

https://mfo.me.uk/showmedia.php?mediaID=1911