drownings in the thames

[Darian Zam]

Earlier comment covered me rechecking all stops along the route for marriage records and found nothing. I didn't find anything in South African records but it always pays to look again.

If he left London on the 21st, it took 6 days to reach Capetown. I now understand it doesn't seem the order was wrong as there are three examples of Capetown being the first stop after or last stop before England. Anyway, it seems like my speculation for an England-Australia run of 13-14 days  was pretty spot on for a rough guess. My calculation shows that Capetown to Melbourne was 7 days. That's 13 days with a day for restock, cargo, maintenance, board/unboard etc. So yes Natal makes WAY more sense, especially where I mention the stop was listed as 'Durban' later on.

MORAVIAN

OF ABERDEEN, A. SIMPSON, MASTER, BURTHEN 2902 TONS
FROM THE PORT OF LONDON VIA PORTS TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 21ST OCTOBER 1900

Surname   Given name   Station          Age   Of what Nation   Status

GRANT       A             GENERAL SERVANT   22     LEE                    CREW

https://marinersandships.com.au/1900/10/107mor.htm


Regarding your previous post mentioning Mrs. M. Tyree embarking on the Moravian, have you noticed that "Port at which Passengers have contracted to land" is Capetown? (I was hoping it was Natal in Brazil, given that I live in Brazil and I could try to find a marriage record  ). Could she have married Arthur in Capetown?

By the way, I think Natal was in South Africa as well! https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C62524

https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/1185CAA6-FA02-11E9-AE98-F784F22FEE0D?image=101

[Darian Zam]

Oh, so it did actually go to Sydney. First mention I've seen of that. So that leg was the shortest, probably half a day in comparison.

Oct 21-7 Nov 1900 (17 days) arr  Sydney 7 Nov 1900,  new run departs Sydney 8 Nov 1900. Counting 1 day stop at each country hence migration records being present. Liner probably restocked/cargo on these days and turnaround day in Sydney. My estimate based on Arthur’s migration records London 21 Oct 1900 and Capetown 27 Oct 1900 respectively and Polly’s arrival in Melbourne from Sydney Nov 9 1900:

London- Capetown Oct 21-27
Capetown 24 hours  Oct 28
Depart Capetown Oct 29
Arr Albany WA Nov 4
Albany-Melbourne 5
Melbourne arr 5 Nov
 Melbourne 24 hours 6
Melbourne-Sydney 7
Depart Sydney 8
Sydney-Melbourne 9
Arr Melbourne 9  Nov
Depart Melbourne 10 Nov

[Darian Zam]

Reading the description again, that actually makes more sense, yes. A brooch that was an actual M, rather than engraved with an M.

I think this must be the article that Arthur Grant's uncle saw (my emphasis).

Friday 26 April 1901: Greenwich and Deptford Observer

MAN AND WOMAN MYSTERIOUSLY DROWNED
 She was wearing a metal brooch with "M" on it, and there was a piece of muslin in her mouth. Dr. Hirsch said the woman was pregnant and attributed death in both instances to drowning, He was of opinion that the woman had herself placed the muslin in her mouth. —

A comment.
Brooches fashioned in the form of an alphabet letter or decoratively engraved with a letter, were worn early in the 20th century and I can also see examples created before this.

Quite a variety of examples can be seen by google search. Perhaps it is this type she was wearing at death. M for Mary.

Could the muslin in her mouth have been something to do with the presence of her false teeth?
Doesn't really make sense though!

Sue

[maddys52]

As you know the Moravian left Sydney 9 Nov 1901. Shipping reports in various newspapers give the following timeline:

12 Nov - arr Melbourne
14 Nov - left Melbourne
20 Nov - arr Albany
7 Dec -  arr Natal
13 Dec -  left Table Bay
29 Dec - arr Teneriffe
3 Jan - passed Ushant
5 Jan - passed Prawle Point
5 Jan - arr Gravesend (for Royal Albert Dock)

Modified to add:
Interesting note about the Moravian and it's Captain SIMPSON:
"One of the most popular skippers on ocean steamers is, perhaps, "auld mon" Simpson, of the Aberdeen liner Moravian. He is essentially a democrat, and when evening concerts are held not only arranges for the passengers to attend irespective of "class", but also allows the crew to be present. He is known amongst seamen as "Our blue-eyed skipper."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167245126

[AlanBoyd]

It is worth considering the possibility that some sort of marriage ceremony was conducted on board the Moravian. My understanding is that such a marriage would not be legal under UK law, but had to be recorded in the ship's log. This would be the case regardless of whether it was conducted by the captain, or by a member of the clergy. But, of course, the participants might be romantically inclined to believe that they were now married.

SS Moravian was launched in 1899 by the Aberdeen White Star Line — https://mfo.me.uk/showmedia.php?mediaID=1911 — so there may have been a further complication arising from the fact that under Scots Law a marriage could (can still?) be conducted by a simple declaration.  Thus it is possible that a marriage on board a Scottish ship might be able to be validated later through a sheriff's warrant and/or cohabitation.

I have searched in the 1901 Scottish census for "Arthur Grant" and only found one case in the correct age range, but he was 18 and living in Lasswade, so he seems unlikely and I have not looked at the full record. I searched for Arthur Tyre* and got no hits. I searched for Mary Tyre* and got two hits for women called Mary Tyre.

I found a Polly Grant, but it was not the right woman.

[AlanBoyd]

Where was Hollydale, Waverley Road, Weybridge?

In the 1901 census there are two households listed at Hollydale: the Grant family; and an Elizabeth Robinson, widow, with her daughter and grandson. In 1911 the situation is similar: the Grants at Hollydale with their neighbour Elizabeth Robinson next door, also Hollydale.

I have found these properties in the 1910 Valuation records. The details of the Grant residence are:

Waverley Road, Cottage and Garden
occupier: Grant
owner: E Robinson, 1 Hollydale, Waverley Road, freeholder
weekly tenancy
annual rent £20 16s [=8s per week, there is an annotation that this seems low, should be valued at 9s]

3 Bedrooms, Parlour, Kitchen, Scullery
Coals, Pantry, & W.C. — good
brick slate — good

This property and Mrs Robinson's are a pair of semi-detached cottages, presumably referred to at that time as 1 and 2 Hollydale. The associated maps show clearly that these correspond today to nos. 4 and 6 Waverley Road. I was all set to post an image, forgetting that this is a lookup thread, no images allowed. So, you will have to go on to streetview and find it for yourself: no. 6 corresponds to the Grant house and is at the north end of the street, on the east side.

Finally, unless John Grant ran a gardening business and was employing others (there is no evidence for this), I don't think he would be considered to be lower middle class; rather he was skilled working class. In the 1911 census he is classified as 'worker'.

[AlanBoyd]

Scenes from Hollydale

Frederick Grant seeking employment
19 May 1894: Reading Mercury

AS CARRIAGE GROOM, or GROOM under a coachman. Age 20. 2½ years' good character. — F. Grant, Hollydale, Weybridge, Surrey.

Mrs Robinson, in memoriam
6 November 1915: Surrey Advertiser

ROBINSON — In loving memory of our dear mother, Elizabeth Robinson, late of Hollydale, Weybridge, who departed this life 1st November, 1914. Ever remembered by her children.

[AlanBoyd]

The Baker Street Schools

'The Baker Street Schools' plural is a bit nebulous. There were two schools in Weybridge at that time neither in Baker St, and both primary I believe.

@reply #109

There are various newspaper references to the schools in Baker Street, Weybridge.

Here are the schools marked on the 1914 25 inch map at the junction of Springfield Meadows and Baker Street. Waverley Road (to the south and just off this map) is a few minutes walk away, down Springfield Meadows then Melrose Road.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103314127#zoom=5.4&lat=5919&lon=1802&layers=BT

[Darian Zam]

Yes I already covered that speculation in an earlier comment, if the ring was a wedding band it would have been engraved with letters inside 'M.G.' But it wasn't. It was 'M.T.'

I wonder though, if they were married, whether the Kentish Independent newspaper would have said...

He and a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyree, had been living together at the house of Mrs Harden.

Wouldn't she be Mrs Grant or Mary Grant?

Sue