Elizabeth White, possibly of Derbyshire

[king william]

I am helping a friend do her family history and have been given a rudimentary family tree, but am not certain of how correct it is.
On it, it states that Elizabeth Jane White of "Cotmanhay", Derbyshire married Thomas Brown.
Her parents were Joseph White and Catharine Roadnight of St. Mary's Warwick, who I actually found on the IGI. I also found their daughter to be Elizabeth Ann White also of St. Mary's, Warwick, so I would presume that is also correct. The father of both Joseph and Catharine are called Thomas
I am querying the name of Cotsmanhay on this document as I looked in the British atlas and did not find it. Just in case I do need to know about this place does it ring any bells with anyone .
Also can anyone find any more history of the Thomas Roadnight's and Thomas Whites, there were several on the IGI and I could not find a definite link.
Robin
New Zealand

[Tati]

Hi Robin,

I think it would be easier to start from known facts ... Not sure it's safe to assume that Elizabeth Ann from Warwick and Elizabeth Jane from Derby are the same person without more evidence ...

What do you know for sure?

[Gilld]

Cotmanhay is part of Ilkeston , Derbyshire which is on the Derbyshire / Nottinghamshire border.

Hope that this helps !!
Gill

[king william]

Thanks for the info about the location - and existance of - Cotmanhay. As for Elizabeth Jane and Elizabeth Jane, the original information I had was simply that an "Elizabeth" married Thomas Brown and they emigrated to New Zealand in 1873.
I had no surname for her until I was given this basic family tree which gives the wife of Thomas Brown as Elizabeth Jane White and it gives a place of Cotmanhay, Derbyshire, not sure if it means they were from there, or she was from there or even that they lived there before they emigrated. She was 27 when they emigrated which gives her a birth year of 1846.
I was also given the marriage certificate of her parents, who are Joseph White and Catharine Roadnight - they were married on 10th January 1843 in the parish of St. Mary's in Warwick. Also on this it gives the father's of both as Thomas White, labourer, and Thomas Roadnight, labourer.
On the IGI I found an Elizabeth Ann White, daughter of Joseph and Catharine White born 3/12/1846 which fits perfectly.
I guess I can now discard the info about Elizabeth Jane White of Cotmanhay as irrelevant, any opinions on that.
I found quite a few Thomas Roadnight's of Warwick on the IGI, am wondering if by chance anyone descended from this same family can give me an idea of which could be the father of Catharine Roadnight. It would be nice to add another generation.
If it helps the first two children of Thomas Brown and Elizabeth were Joseph and William.
Hope this is not too complicated, any help given is very much appreciated.
Robin
Tauranga
New Zealand

[Tati]

The daughter of Joseph White was definitely Elizabeth A ...

1861
RG9/2226 16 26
Warwick St Nicholas
Factory Yard
Joseph White, head, wid, 45, Car proprietor, b. Gloucestershire Hidecoat
Elizabeth A, dau, 14, Father's House Keeper, b. Warwick
Mary J, dau, 9, don't go to school, b. do.
Sydney J, son, 7, don't go to school, b. do.
Sarah R, dau, 5, scholar, b. do.

1851
HO107/2074 109 12
Wellesbourne Hastings, Warwickshire
Joseph White, head, 35, Labourer, b. Gloucestershire Hidcote?
Catherine, wife, 20, b. Warwickshire Kenilworth
Thomas, son, 7, b. Warwick
Elizabeth, dau, 4, b. do.

Hmm. Age 20 seems a bit weird 

There's a possible marriage March 1868 Kings Norton Elizabeth Ann White - Thomas Brown

In 1871 (they're in Handsworth Staffordshire), it says that Thomas age 32 is from ?Northampton?.

I can see one Catherine Roadknight age 20 on the 1841 census for Wappenbury Warwickshire, but she's not with her family (she's a servant on a farm). Not much help     

[king william]

Wow, many thanks - this just clinches it, and I am sure that the marriage you found was also Elizabeth and Thomas as Kings Norton is not too far from where I gather the Brown's lived, and the mention of Thomas having come from Northampton - isn't that all fairly close to the Birmingham area.
When they came out to New Zealand in 1873, they had Joseph aged 4 and William aged 3, I believe William was born in Birmingham, and Kings Norton is not far from there.
I have an obituary written for William in 1940 which gives a birth date of June 16th 1870 in Birmingham so I would presume it was correct.
I am curious about one thing - in the 1861 census it gives his occupation as "car proprietor" - what exactly would that be.
Shame those children didn't go to school, they must have been the bad old days!
Many thanks - Robin

[Tati]

I'm not the one to ask where geography is concerned but indeed Northamptonshire borders Warwickshire
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/counties.html

Here are the 1871 details:
RG10/2968 6 6
Handsworth, Staffordshire
3 Hawthorne Terrace
Thos Brown, head, 32, Tube Maker, b. Northampton
Eliz, wife, 24, b. Warwick
Jos Thos, son, 2, b. Staffordshire Handsworth
William, son, 9mo, b. do.
William Gould, lodger, unm, 26, Mechanical Engineer, b. Gloucestershire Welford on Avon 

[king william]

I just love this site, so many thanks to you all - did I say that I am doing this for a friend who has no idea how to go about it - and I have not too much more knowledge, but thanks to you wonderful people, it is all coming together.
It still beats me why a family would get on a leaky boat for 3 months to come to New Zealand in the 1800's to a (then) fairly primitive lifestyle. One of my lot who were fairly wealthy, left London in the 1840's to come to Wellington, New Zealand, it was a risky voyage, the ship fell in with pirates en route, and Wellington was very small - they were certainly pioneers, but very gutsy - or were they mad! Anyway, New Zealand is a great place to live now but I do not know about then!
Robin

[king william]

Just an extra thought - I guess the Hidecoat? of Gloucestershire is Hidecote Boyce  that I found on my big road map of England. We have that map because my husband is from Erith in London and he has never been back to England to visit since arriving here aged 13 in the 1950's -  he is still very interested in England, thus we have this big mapbook which is so handy when I want to look up any obscure English place. I am fascinated by how many villages there are and how populated England is. In New Zealand you have to travel quite a few miles (kilometres over here) from town to town, there are farms or forests most of the way as we are very agricultural, although for anyone who has ever seen "The Lord of the Rings" the South Island has huge areas with nothing in it but fabulous scenery. I live in Tauranga, in the Bay of Plenty, which was named by Captain Cook centuries ago, sadly he named another part of New Zealand Poverty Bay, not quite the same ring to it!
Thanks for all your help
Robin