Williams/Penfold ?

[aug]

Hi
sorry about this again my head not with it today...

Harriet cooper and George Gladwin are my gg-grandparents

And Thomas gladwin who married Ada penfold are my gg-Aunt and uncle.

Thomas here is George Gladwin son above

jew

[aug]

Hi
sorry about this me writing message here i did not know i had to start a new topic which i have done now

jew

[Dean44]

I note with  interest the link you describe between the Williams and Cooper families in Croydon.  Susan Williams  (nee Cooper?) married to John Wiliams of 6 Wilford Road (1911 census) was described as a second cousin to Catherine Hall (nee Dean) died 1912.  I wonder if you have any information on her please.

My GGGrandfather was Job Dean B1844 to a Joseph and Priscilla Dean. I cannot find a birth but found a baptism record - Tudley and Capel.  He married Sarah Stevens in 1871 Croydon, living in Wheat Road at the time. Witnesses to the marriage were Susan Taylor and Stephen Smart.

One of their daughters Catherine B1883 married a Henry Hall in 1902.  In 1911 they were living in Forster Road and in 1912 there was a very nasty incident between Catherine and Henry the outcome of which Henry served 10 years for manslaughter.  In a news paper report it said that Susan Williams/Cooper was the deseased's 2nd cousin. 

My GGrandmother Sarah Dean B1871 married a Thomas Saunders in 1890.  The witnesses to the marriage were Amon Counstable and Annie Cooper (they later married)

I have been told that the Dean family were travellers but I have no information as to this although the occupations they have had could suggest this-Tinman, Tin Smith, Hawker. 
Some of the roads they lived in were:Russell Road-Spa Road-Forster Road-Arthur Road-Mitcham Common

Any additional information would also be gratefully received.

[cathayb]

they definately sound like travellers.i will look into it for you and get back to you.

[nightnurse51]

Hi Dean 44
I( have the marriage certificate of John Williams and its John who is the Cooper) but had to legally marry under his mothers name of Sylvia Williams who was the partner of Robert Cooper. of the Norwood Coopers. Robert was the son of Samuel Cooper KIng of the Gypsies who died in 1856 putting out a chimney fire. I also have a copy of the inquest.
Susan' maiden name was actually SMART  but she married William Penfold in St Saviours Croydon 31 12 1886.
She married JOhn Williams/Cooper on the 23 Oct 1893.uinder her married name of Penfold.
I will look into the rest of the info give me a day or two.
Carolx

[nightnurse51]

Re read your statement and if Susan Smart was a second cousin it had to be on either the Smart side or her mothers side and they have to share the same GREAT GRANDPARENT to be 2nd cousins.
So leave it with me and Ill trace Stephen Smarts line (Susans Father) back and see what the connection is.
Many of these families intermarried cousins marrying cousins.
You mention the Taylors well one of the Taylors married a Hearne/hearn.
I am also related to the Taylors of Nottinghill and Sarah Taylor wife of Jeremiah Taylor who died in a knuckle fight on wimbledon common in 1831 (well documented) she died in the Hadlow disaster in 1852, where 31 hoppers drowned when the bridge collasped.
A lot of the people who died were related.
More to follow later, as I am off to a wedding.
Carolx

[nightnurse51]

Stephen Smart married a RUTH TAYLOR June qtr  Croydon 1871.
It looks as though 2 of their children were christened  in lewisham Susannah (Susan) Nov 14 1875 b 22 June 1871 together with her sister Jessie b 28 feb 1874.
On Susans first marriage she must have just only been 16 yrs old. not unusual in those days I am not sure If I have that marriage cert Ill have to check. THey can also lie about their age. but she would have still been a minor (under 21) so she would have had to have permission anyway.
Just have to trace Ruth and stephens marriage cert and find out their fathers names.

[nightnurse51]

Found Steven and Ruth Smart in 1881 census at 47 Forster Road Croydon with 2 younger sons.Notice different spelling now.
A WILLIAM STEVENS and his wife Caroline and two sons were living next door at 46.
AT no 48 another WILLIAM STEVENS with his wife Sarah with Catherine  aged 9 and Sarah aged 3.
THis William was born in Hastings according to the record.
Sarah born in Croydon. aged 28 yrs b about 1852/3

[Dean44]

Thank you very much for this very detailed information.  It will take me a while to fully absorb it and will doubtless raise a number of further questions.   I had seen that Steven Smart had lived next door to the Stevens' but had not realised that he was family.  I had no knowledge of family names and connections as my Grandmother left Croydon c. 1918 and went off to Ireland where she married my Grandfather.  She also confused things by using a number of other different names (which seems to have been quite common in Croydon from what I read).  In the 1911 census it showed that John and Susan had been married for 25 years with one child, but I suspect seeing that she was married before, that she was counting up the years of her first marriage as I had been looking for a marriage from 1886 under Williams and/or Cooper.
If you should ever come across the name of Dean in your researches, connected with any of these people, I would be very grateful to hear.
Once more thank you very much.
Sue