Author Topic: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland  (Read 21106 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 10 June 07 23:03 BST (UK) »
I have found John Brodie's death I believe  :D  His entry was the obvious one but I put off looking at it firstly because of the age showing at death and secondly because of the parish being some way away from South Knapdale:

1872   BRODIE   JOHN   82   LOCHGILPHEAD   /ARGYLL   526/00 0052

His death was reported by a sister Catherine, and he shows as single. Parents Dugald Brodie and Mary Morrison. OPR entries taking us back to South Knapdale:

DUGALD BRODIE  Marriages: Spouse: MARY MORRISON    
Marriage:  01 JAN 1782  South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland

And some of their children, a mixture from the IGI OPR extracts and SP....including a surprise entry  8) which also explains the variant Bride/Briddie etc.:

1. JAMES MCBRIDE  Christening: 12 AUG 1783 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland
 
2. 31/10/1795   BRIDDIE   NEILL   DUGALD BRIDDIE/MARY MORISON   South Knapdale   /ARGYLL   533/ 0010 0039   - Christening

3. 01/04/1801   BRODIE   ANN   DUGALD BRODIE/MARY MORRISON South Knapdale   /ARGYLL   533/ 0010 0061   - Christening

4. 01/04/1801   BRODIE   CATHRINE   DUGALD BRODIE/MARY MORRISON South Knapdale   /ARGYLL - Christening

We also have sons  John born early 1790s (parents confirmed by DC) and Dugald born c. 1787-91 (unconfirmed but v. likely).

Regards.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 10 June 07 23:12 BST (UK) »
Likely death entry for sister Catherine on SP:

1880   BRODIE   CATHERINE   MCMILLAN   F   79   LOCHGILPHEAD   
/ARGYLL   526/00 0024

Possible marriage entry on the OPRs:

CATHRINE BRODIE  Marriages: Spouse:  DUNCAN MCMILLAN    
Marriage: MAY 1830  South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland

1851 Census:

Duncan McMillan 56, ag. lab. , b. S Knapdale
Catharine McMillan 50, b. S Knapdale
Alexander Donachie 22, lodger, b. Ireland
Address: Ormsary (lodge), S Knapdale

By 1861, they seemed to have moved to Lochgilphead:

Duncan McMillan 56, gardener, b. S Knapdale
Catharine McMillan 50, b. S Knapdale
Address: Campbellton Road Mlachlans Land, Lochgilphead

Just realised - I'm getting confused between my Lochgilphead and Lochgoilhead  :P - Lochgilphead where John died is actually in the parish of S Knapdale so makes sense.

Can't see any children for them in the censuses. In 1841 they are also living alone. The only possible entry (and likely an early death if theirs):

DOUGALD MCMILLAN Birth: APR 1835/ Christening: 10 APR 1836  South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland Parents: DUNCAN MCMILLAN and CATHRINE MCMILLAN

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #29 on: Monday 11 June 07 04:11 BST (UK) »
1. Good to have that age discrepancy for John cleared up!  And great additional information.

2. Sharon, re the challenge with cousin Lilley MCBRIDE.  I don't know what is on Canadian certificates but I am wondering whether any later records might help (e.g. reveal the name of her father, show a different age) - marriage or death.

3. Monica, I'm starting to think that any name variants are possible ;)  Re Dougald MCMILLAN b Apr 1835, bap 10 Apr 1836, parents Duncan MCMILLAN/Cathrine MCMILLAN: I'm wondering whether the following might be a twin - Marron MCFARLANE, b Apr 1835, bap 11 Jun 1835, parents Duncan MCFARLANE/Cathrine BRODIE (perhaps the baptisms were performed at different dates because of the poor health of each little one at that time).

JAP

Offline sesd

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #30 on: Monday 11 June 07 13:07 BST (UK) »
I do not see Dougald or Jean in Canada with their mother.

Lilly never married and was listed in 1891 age 40, living with Margaret McBride, farmer, 60 born Scotland, and Dugald Tolman 30 b. Ont. Relationship for both to Margaret was "dom."

Lilly on the 1901 census was a domestic, 47 yrs old born Apr. 15, 1853  in Ontario, but on the 1911 census as 56 yrs., born Apr 1855 in Scotland. Unfortunately the question of date of immigration is not answered in either year.

Children of Dugald McBride & Sarah PATERSON
Margaret and Neil never married
Christina married Neil McLean
Mary married John Tolman December 20, 1860 in Dunwich, Ontario

Neil died AUG 12, 1883 and lists in his will:
- sister Margaret McBride, Dunwich, spinster
- cousin Lilley McBride
- nephew Dugald Tollman, son of sister Mary
- nephew Dugald McLean, son of sister Christie

Margaret died intestate FEB 9, 1894
petitioners to her estate were:
Christina McLean, Dunwich, sister and wife of Neil  McLean,
Mary Talman, Dunwich, sister and wife of John Talman




Duff, Stewart, McEachern, McCann, McDougall, Walters, Beynon, Griggs, Smith, Mellor, Haigh, Gayfer, Bird, Burnside, McCool, Lowrey, Skinner, Tolmie, McIntosh, Proctor, Broadhead, Biernes, Winn, Woodley, Wyman, Robertson, Young, Cochrane, Carson, O'Malley, McKnight, Grose, Currie, Valentine, Higginson, Gillespie, Avery, Black, Moon, Richardson, Harvey, Cowling


Offline MonicaL

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #31 on: Monday 11 June 07 14:48 BST (UK) »
Sharon

Slowly we are chipping away at this - it's been challenging fun  ;)
A couple of thoughts here having immersed myself in Brodies in the last couple of days. I'll list them in no order of importance:

1. I do think that Lilly McBride is probably the Lilias showing as b. 1851 to Neil and Barbara. There is nothing for her in Scotland for 1861/71. It would be brilliant to find her in Canada for those years.  I don't suppose you have been able to find her death cert. (?) to date. Her age on the censuses that you do have her for seem erratic. The 1891 one certainly shows her as born in 1851, as for the rest they are out by a few years but as with all recording of ages on censuses, -5yrs is not unusual in some cases.

2. I also don't suppose that Barbara's maiden name was included in her estate papers/ death cert.  following her death in 1887 or you would have said. I am not familiar with Canadian death certs. Thinking of her children's death entries if you have them (?), do they not show mother's maiden name like the Scottish ones do?

3. One thought to bear in mind with that 1841 Census entry with Neil and a Mary in S Knapdale. I still don't think that Mary and Barbara are one and the same. It wouldn't surprise me if something you said earlier was not closer to the truth. It may be that the Mary Brodie is a sister to Neil (his mother was called that). It is possible, as you said, that first wife may have died by the time of the 1841 Census and that he married Barbara after this date. Hard to confirm either way unless we find parent details for the children showing in 1841.

4. There is only one other BRODIE family in South Knapdale in 1841, headed by an Alexander Brodie. His age would make him potentially a sibling to Neil, Dugald and John etc. Might be worthwhile following up to see whether he also left for Canada. Cannot see him from the 1841 Census onwards.

Regards.

Monica

ADDED: Re No.4 above. I think Alexander Brodie may have died pre 1851. This is the family's entry in 1841:

Alexr Brodie    42, agr. Lab
Christian Brodie 36
Mary Brodie    19
John Brodie    17
James Brodie    15
Duncan Brodie    13
Dugald Brodie    9
Alexr Brodie    7

Address: Baile Boidhead, S Knapdale

And in 1851, this is probably wife Christina with some of the children;

Christina McBride 55, mother in law
Duncan McBride    21, brother in law
John McLarty    26, agr. lab. b. Jura, Argyll
Mary McLarty    27
Alexander McLarty 1 Mo

Address: Baileboiach (cottage), S Knapdale - everyone apart from John McL showing as born in S Knapdale

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sesd

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #32 on: Monday 11 June 07 15:53 BST (UK) »
Monica,
1. I will search a bit more on the 1861-71 censuses for Lilly, but it may take some time, as haying season has started and genealogy work will be slowed for the next couple of weeks.
2. I have sent for her death record, but have not yet received it, so I am not sure what is included.
3. I suspect there were probably a number more siblings of John & Neil, etc. Considering there was a marriage in 1782 followed immediately by a son, then a 10 year gap.
4. I have 1 Alexander McBride in the section of my notes entitled "misc McBrides not named Neil" He was a lake boat captain & vessl owner. according to the 1871 census he was born abt 1820 in Scotland. His wife was Mary Campbell  (b abt 1813 scotland) daughter of John Campbell

He had a son named John born in Ontario in 1845, a daughter named Annie Jane and one other child with her before she died in 1862.
Duff, Stewart, McEachern, McCann, McDougall, Walters, Beynon, Griggs, Smith, Mellor, Haigh, Gayfer, Bird, Burnside, McCool, Lowrey, Skinner, Tolmie, McIntosh, Proctor, Broadhead, Biernes, Winn, Woodley, Wyman, Robertson, Young, Cochrane, Carson, O'Malley, McKnight, Grose, Currie, Valentine, Higginson, Gillespie, Avery, Black, Moon, Richardson, Harvey, Cowling

Offline JAP

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #33 on: Monday 11 June 07 16:02 BST (UK) »
sesd,

You are fortunate to have so much info (online!) from the Ontario Genealogical Society.

I looked at some of this earlier today and made some connexions (some mentioned in your recent post) - I might post some tomorrow (it's early am here in the Antipodes!).

MCBRIDEs from Argyllshire (whether or not connected to yours!) certainly seemed to have been very early (or older) immigrants to Ontario!  Including:
http://www.elginogs.ca/cemeteries/stthomas/westaveOSS.htm
OSS007 White marble slab on ground.
In Memory of/DONALD McBRIDE/Native of Argyleshire/Scotland/who departed this life/ Aug. 24, 1851/age 82 years/Prepare to follow me

The Kilfinan lot might be connected to your lot - but I suspect not (though who knows).  The Kilfinan Neil looks like a brother of John (who m Catherine MCCALLUM and went to Ontario in the 1830s) - both probably sons of Alexander MCBRIDE & Mary BAXTER.  John apparently died in 1843.

I do think that your Neil (husband of Barbara) and Dugald (husband of Sarah/Marion) were brothers - but no proof!

Cheers,

JAP

Offline JAP

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #34 on: Monday 11 June 07 17:02 BST (UK) »
Slowly we are chipping away at this - it's been challenging fun  ;)
A couple of thoughts here having immersed myself in Brodies in the last couple of days. I'll list them in no order of importance:

1. I do think that Lilly McBride is probably the Lilias showing as b. 1851 to Neil and Barbara. There is nothing for her in Scotland for 1861/71. It would be brilliant to find her in Canada for those years.  I don't suppose you have been able to find her death cert. (?) to date. Her age on the censuses that you do have her for seem erratic. The 1891 one certainly shows her as born in 1851, as for the rest they are out by a few years but as with all recording of ages on censuses, -5yrs is not unusual in some cases.
Monica, please let us know about these "erratic" ages.  As far as I'm aware, we haven't, here on RC, heard about Lilley's age in in any census apart from the Canadian 1881 and (if she's the same person as Lillias) the Scotland 1851!?  It would certainly be good were her age to be variable.  I seem to recall (could very well be wrong and will check tomorrow) that I noticed a possible death of a Lily MCBRIDE in Ontario in 1928 (no age given) in those online records I mentioned in my previous post ...

Quote
3. One thought to bear in mind with that 1841 Census entry with Neil and a Mary in S Knapdale. I still don't think that Mary and Barbara are one and the same. It wouldn't surprise me if something you said earlier was not closer to the truth. It may be that the Mary Brodie is a sister to Neil (his mother was called that). It is possible, as you said, that first wife may have died by the time of the 1841 Census and that he married Barbara after this date. Hard to confirm either way unless we find parent details for the children showing in 1841.
Monica, of course it's more than possible that Mary is a sister and that Barbara was elsewhere ...
BUT the fact is that we DO have birth details for children showing in 1841 (Mary 6, Jean 4, Dugald 1) with at least two of them having Barbara as mother (and Barbara may very well be Effie given her surname and place and date of birth).
Namely (see my earlier post):
All South Knapdale (and MCTAVISH and THOMSON are most definitely interchangeable, not just in this family but in general):
Neill MCBRIDE/Effie MCTAVISH
- Mary b Oct 1834, bap 9 Feb 1835
Niel BRODY/Barbara MACTAVISH
- Jean b 17 Apr, bap 1 May 1837
Neill BRODIE/Barbara MCTAVISH
- Dougald b 18 Aug, bap 22 Aug 1839

I did see one Barbara THOMSON of an appropriate age elsewhere in the 1841 - but I didn't much like it ...

JAP

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland
« Reply #35 on: Monday 11 June 07 17:28 BST (UK) »
JAP

From Sharon's previous post (#30), ages for Lily:

1881: 24
1891: 40
1901: 47
1911: 56

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk