Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland

[mike175]

Sharon,

After your last post I did a 'wildcard' search of the 1841 Argyllshire census for all the Barbaras born around 1809, and found none associated with either a Neil or a Mary of the right age (as she would have been the only  child from your original list born by 1841) . . . I extended the search to the whole of Scotland, but as there were over 700 I postponed that one . . .

Mike.

[MonicaL]

Me too Mike 

JAP, I think at this stage we are discounting nothing. The problem we are having is with the few entries we have been able to find in either the 1841 Census (the BRODIE family) and the small number of IGI/ OPR entries that may relate to the three families, there is nothing more that lets us connect to the groups we have to be able to go back or forward.

Again, casting the net wide, I've tried searching for the Lilley McBride who shows in Ontario in 1881. As Sharon said, she shows as born in Scotland, age 24, so born c. 1856 and a cousin. This is post registration - but so far can't find her. Hoping to find her parents (and a link back to Neil, husband of Barbara) in the post registration era of Scotland but no luck so far.

Regards.

Monica

[sesd]

I also tried the "show me all the Barbara's and Barbra's and all the Neil's (Niel's and Neal's) as well. If they aren't from Argyle, it is truely overwhelming.

I wouldn't assume that there are no other children. I would think that with a 10-12 year span between these 3, and the first when the mother was in her late 20's, there probably were others. These are just the ones that survived and remained with their mother until at least 1861. In previous years there may have been more. They may have died or not accompanied their parents to Canada. 

Sharon

[MonicaL]

  I think I found Dugald McBride and Sarah Paterson (not helped by Ancestry's transcription of their name which I'll leave as indexed!):

Dugd McVorgde    50, Subr (?) Tenant
Sarah McVorgde    50
Margt McVorgde    15
Neil McVorgde    13

Address:  Teretigan, Kilberry Argyll

I have checked on the SP index (not showing on FreeCen - no idea why as they are supposed to be 100% for Argyll) and found this likely corresponding entry:

1841   MCBRYDE   SARAH   F   50   KILCALMONELL AND KILBERRY   /ARGYLL   516/00 006/00 015


Now, from personal experience with my MacDonalds in Argyll  , Sarah and Marion are sometimes interchangeable (no idea why). I found these entries yesterday on SP's OPR index for births/christenings which now make more sense with the above potential 1841 entry:

1   16/12/1823   MCBRIDE   KATHERINE   DUGALD MCBRIDE/MARION PATERSON FR475   F   Kilcalmonell and Kilberry   /ARGYLL   516/ 0020 0037   

2   20/04/1834   MCBRIDE   MARY   DUGALD MCBRIDE/MARRION PATERSON FR632   F   Kilcalmonell and Kilberry   /ARGYLL   516/ 0020 0336

Given the ages for Dugald and Sarah born c. 1787-91, we also have their marriage on the OPRs in North Knapdale on 29 Jun 1821. Makes sense.

Who they are and how they connect to the other two families still no idea 

Regards.

Monica

FreeCen do have them. Original writing must be awful. It is also a complete listing of the household which looks to have gone over to two pages:

MCRORGDE Dugald       50 Sub Tenant        
MCRORGDE Sarah       50               
MCRORDGE Margaret     15               
MCRORGDE Neil       13           
MCRORDGE Chirsty   9   b. Argyllshire       
MCRORDGE Mary       7    b. Argyllshire       
MCALPINE Mary       60 Merchant b. Argyllshire

Address: Teretigan, Kilberry

There is a note for the household regarding legibility of surname. Also, the first few entries do not have birth county details, again I would imagen due to illegibility.

[JAP]

Some more births in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry for Dugald & 'Sarah' - for completeness, I'll include the births Monica found and also the marriage.

Dugald MACBRIDE m Sarah PATERSON, 29 Jun 1821, North Knapdale
Births in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry:
Katherine MCBRIDE b 16 Dec 1823, Dugald MCBRIDE/Marion PATERSON
Margaret BRODIE b 10 Nov 1825, Dugald BRODIE/Marrion PATERSON
Niel BRODIE b 17 Feb 1828, Dougald BRODIE/Marrion PETERSON
Christian BRODIE b 17 Apr 1832, Dugald BRODIE/Marrion PETERSON
Mary MCBRIDE b 20 Apr 1834, Dugald MCBRIDE/Marrion PATERSON

Good to see another instance of McBRIDE and BRODIE being interchangeable.

If Sarah and Marion are interchangeable (!), why not Effie, Mary and Barbara 
An Ephan MCTAVISH was b 9 Jun 1804, Glassary, Donald MCTAVISH/Margaret MCALPIN

Sharon, Do you have passenger/migration records for Barbara and family?  That is, do you know that your Neil emigrated to Canada with Barbara or might she have gone as a widow?  And similarly do you know which children migrated with her?  I am wondering whether there are any burial records or MIs for South Knapdale (not just for Neil but also for the missing children - although, of course, of the South Knapdale family, Jane/Jean might have married or might have been working elsewhere in Canada in 1861, similarly Dugald might be working elsewhere?).

JAP

[MonicaL]

I wonder.....

We have the Dugald and Sarah (Marion) family up to 1841. Their son Neil shows in 1881 in Canada with a cousin Lilley McBride living with him. I have looked post registration and can't find her so had reached the conclusion that perhaps her age was wrong and she was born pre-1855. I wonder if this is her and as such making the link between Dugald & Sarah/Neil & Barbara.

From the previous entry for the 1851 Brodie Family in South Knapdale:

Niel Brodie    53, agri. lab. b.
Barbara Brodie    46, b. Glassary, Argyll
Mary Brodie    16
Jane Brodie    14
Dugald Brodie    10
Catharine Brodie 7
John Brodie    5
Lillias Brodie   1 Month
John Brodie    65, brother, agri. lab.

Address: Baileyerzagan Cottage, South Knapdale

Regards.

Monica

[sesd]

JAP
I have never been sure that Neil emmigrated. I have a whole spreadsheet of the 6 contemporary Neil McBrides in the area where they settled, colour coded to distinguish references to them and their descendants on censuses, marriage records, tombstones, deeds, etc. I have one tombstone that I am not positive belongs to some other Neil, but I also can't assign it to him either.

Monica,
I also have the Sarah/Marion interchangability in my Islay ancestry.

I think that the 1851 Brodie family in South Knapdale looks like a very good match. Lillie/Lillias makes a possible connection with at least one of the other McBrides in Dunwich, Ontario.

My notes show a letter from Dugald McBride and Archibald Patterson dated 1847, asking to purchase their land in Ontario. I am not clear whether the letter came from Scotland or if they were already in Canada

I am really overawed at the amount of work and the great detective skills you all have put into this mystery. I never could have found them on my own.

JAP, I think that the 1841 South Knapdale - Clachbreck might be the same ones

John Brodie 45   Ag. Lab.            
Niel Brodie 40   Ag. Lab.            
Catherine Brodie 80   
Mary Brodie 30               
Mary Brodie 6                   
Jean Brodie 4                  
Dugald Brodie 1       

John, Neil, children Mary and Jean match quite well.  Adult Mary could be Barbara, or she might be a first wife.

Thank you once again, Monica Mike and JAP.

I'm off to the library this afternoon to look for Mary & William Goodlass. Mary is the one daughter of John McBride, son of Neil and Barbara. Goodlasses should be easy to find, right?

Sharon

[JAP]

Hi all,

Well, I wonder whether anyone has access to Argyllshire MIs - there just might be some clues ...

The challenge with cousin Lilley MCBRIDE, 24, b Scotland, living in Ontario in 1881 with Neil MCBRIDE 52 (presumably the son of Dugald & Sarah/Marion b 17 Feb 1828) and Margaret MCBRIDE 54 (?Neil's sister b 10 Nov 1825) is not just Lilley's age (if she's the 1 month old Lillias in the 1851 census at Baileyerzagan Cottage, South Knapdale then the age is way out) BUT where was a Lillias and/or Lilley in the 1861 census!  Either in Canada or in Scotland ...

It would also be good to be able to trace what happened to Jean (Jean b 17 Apr 1837, Jean 4 at Clachbreck in 1841, Jane 14 at Baileyerzagan in 1851); and Dugald (Dougald b 18 Aug 1839, Dugald 1 at Clachbreck in 1841, Dugald 10 at Baileyerzagan in 1851) given that they aren't in the 1861 with Barbara.

Another matter which it would be nice to have sorted out is the age of John BRODIE (if these two are one and the same) - 45 (rounded down) at Clachbreck in 1841, 65 at Baileyerzagan in 1851.

As for the Effie/Mary/Barbara puzzle ...
Are these all one and the same person.
From the birth records, Effie MCTAVISH is listed as the mother of Mary b Oct 1834, and Barbara MCTAVISH/THOMSON as the mother of Jean b 17 Apr 1837, Dougald b 18 Aug 1839, John b 12 Jan 1842 (presumably died young), Catherine b 1 Mar 1843, and John b 2 Dec 1845.
Barbara is listed as aged 46, b Glassary in the 1851 Baileyerzagan census.  But as 52 in the 1861.  If the 1851 is correct that would give a birthdate of ca 1805 - and would be a perfect match for Ephan MCTAVISH b 9 Jun 1804 in Glassary.
Mary 30 (rounded down) in 1841 at Clackbreck might be Effie/Barbara - certainly Barbara (even if she is not the same as Effie) was well and truly on the scene by that time having had children in 1837 and 1839.
Does anyone know of any of these names being interchanged ...

Sharon, in your initial post you had Barbara listed as a Farmer in the 1861 in Ontario.  I take it you haven't found any correspondence from her (or Neil, if he did go to Canada) re purchase of land.

JAP
 

[MonicaL]

John Brodie, brother, who is living with Neil and  Barbara in 1851, is alive and well past official registration:

1861: John Brodie 67 (c. 1794), gardener, b. S Knapdale - Address: Ormsary, S Knapdale

1871: John Brodie 78  (c. 1793), gardener, b. S Knapdale - Address: Sayrahacrin (cottage), S Knapdale

In summary:
1841 - 45 years
1851 - 65 years
1861 - 67 years
1871 - 78 years

With the exception of the 1851 census, birth year likely to be in the range of 1793/4, with the normal rounding down for the 1841 entry.

John, as the rest of the family, is proving hard to find on the death index of SP...

Regards.

Monica