Neil & Barbara McBride - 1841 & 1851 somewhere in Scotland

[MonicaL]

  Found the marriage, from the OPRs, closing off all the question marks:

01/02/1834   BRODIE   NEILL   BABBY MCTAVISH/FR402   South Knapdale   /ARGYLL   533/ 0020 0215

...Babby, a new one on me 

On the issue of McTavish and Thomson:

THOMSON, 'son of THOM," q.v. A fairly numerous surname in Scotland. . . . Many individuals of this name in Perthshire and Argyllshire are really Mactavishes. The surname in these districts is an Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomais, 'son of Thomas,' or of Mac Thomaidh, 'son of Tommie.' The name is usually spelled MaKcome (3 syllables) in the early records, and was formerly common in Upper Deeside. . . . In some instances it is also an Englishing of MACCOMIE, q.v. See also THOMASON.

Source: www.thompsonfamilies.org

Back to the 1841 Census, just realized that we are all working off transcriptions and indexes. Sharon, it may be worthwhile you looking at the original image for the family in 1841. If writing is questionable, BABBY to MARY might simply be a mistranscription simply due to legibility. I've just checked the SP 1841 index, they also have her as Mary, in this case age 50 (instead of 30 as FreeCen/Ancestry):

1841   BRODIE   MARY   50   SOUTH KNAPDALE   /ARGYLL   533/00 006/00 001


Regards.

Monica

[MonicaL]

  Think I have also found Barbara's OPR's birth entry.

Having seen her marriage entry under Babby...I believe that's exactly how her birth was registered:

03/08/1807   MCTAVISH   BABY   JOHN MCTAVISH/JEAN MORISON FR265   Glassary/ARGYLL   511/ 0020 0010

SP do not include the word 'baby' - meaning just that in their index - for first names (in the situation where the baby I assume was unnamed and unlikely to survive for example), so given we have Barbara as Babby at her marriage, it would appear that she was Bab(b)y at birth.

With her parents names as John and Jean, we now also have Scottish naming order for the children of Neil and Barbara:

Mary b. 1834 - after Neil's mother
Jean b. 1837 - after Barbara's mother
Dugald b. 1840 - after Neil's father
John b. 1842 (died before 1846) - after Barbara's father

Other children showing to John McTavish and Jean Morrison:

1. LACHLAN MCTAVISH Birth: 11 JAN 1802 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland
2. LILLY MCTAVISH  Birth: 12 AUG 1804 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland
3. ARCHIBALD MCTAVISH Birth: 29 MAR 1814 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland

There may be more entries for the reading of the marriage/banns on SP which could give you clues as to where bride and groom were from. There is one entry showing on IGI on 12 APR 1801 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland.

Regards.

Monica

[sesd]

Wow, what a good group of detectives!

Just a quick note before I get back to the hay.

Barabara was listed as Barbary on her death certificate.

Sharon

[mike175]

Sharon,

I'd like to echo that 'Wow!' . . . there's been some serious detective work while I was away over the weekend.

Not sure if I can be of much more use in exploring the alternative names as I only have access to the census through Ancestry which has no original scans for Scotland, unlike England where I have solved many a mystery by re-interpreting the handwriting.

I'll keep watching your progress in case I might contribute further, but meanwhile good luck with the search . . . and I hope it keeps fine for the hay!

Mike.

[JAP]

Wow - things certainly have progressed in a few hours.  Monica, sorry about the census ages - I must have been half asleep (it was very late here in the Antipodes).  I'm relieved that it finally seems to be agreed that the 1841 family is the right one (I felt people were getting sick of me pushing it since post #8  )

I am kicking myself for missing that marriage!  I'm starting to think that perhaps it's only just appeared in the IGI!  Surely I would have searched for marriages of a Neil MCBRIDE with spouse MCTAVISH (none in the whole of the IGI); and for Neil BRODIE with spouse MCTAVISH (there's only the one in the whole of the IGI). No, I guess it was there and somehow I missed it.  Perhaps I searched for MACTAVISH and assumed the IGI would combine MCTAVISH & MACTAVISH - which I now find it doesn't (however, it does combine - note the space - MC TAVISH & MAC TAVISH!!).

I've checked back in the IGI for Barbara/Babby/Baby's birth and can see why I didn't find it (I'd had a good look at the Glassary batches - though there are many entries as Glassary seems to be a MCTAVISH stronghold).  The LDS transcribers must have taken 'Baby' to mean 'a baby' - so they didn't enter any given name!  It just shows as MCTAVISH female 

Just for completeness, here are some more children to John M(A)CTAVISH and Jean/Jane MOR(R)ISON as they appear in the IGI:
John MCTAVISH m Jean MORRISON, South Knapdale, 12 Apr 1801 (the extracted record which Monica posted - there are also LDS submissions about this couple, some of of which refer to them as 'of Monedrain, Glassary').
All Glassary
Lachlan MCTAVISH b 11 Jan 1802
Lilly MCTAVISH b 12 Aug 1804
Female MCTAVISH b 3 Aug 1807
Angus MACTAVISH b 1 Jan 1810
Robert MACTAVISH b 19 Dec 1811
Archibald MCTAVISH b 29 Mar 1814
John MACTAVISH b 12 Mar 1816
Daniel MACTAVISH b 2 Feb 1820
I see now that the extras are all spelled MACTAVISH - they came up because I searched in the three batches (C115112, C115114, C115115) just for mother Jean MORISON (the IGI does combine MORISON/MORRISON and also Jean/Jane!).

MCTAVISH is a pretty common name but John & Jean might be the following MCTAVISH family on FreeCEN in Stroudour, South Knapdale - John 64 Ag Lab, Jean 60, Angus 28 Fisherman, Archibald 26 Fisherman all born ARL.  Next door but one in Stroudour is a MCTAVISH family of Lachlan 36 Fisherman, Ann 30, John 8, Archibald 5, Angus 3 all born ARL.  There are other possibilities for family members; Lilly seems to have married a Donald MCTAVISH in 1827 and be living in Lochgilphead - Donald 20 Fisherman, Lilly 30, John 12, Jean 9, Alexander 7, Angus 5, Margaret 3, Lilly 1 all born ARL.  Etc ...

Mike, as far as I'm aware there are only two ways for distant persons to see the Scotland census scans - either order relevant films in to one's nearest LDS Family History centre OR pay to view them on ScotlandsPeople.  I don't have Ancestry access and don't spend my SP credits on RC searches so, for Scotland, I am personally limited to FamilySearch, FreeCEN, and free searches (narrowing parameters but not viewing the results) on SP - and all the great information posted by those who have Ancestry access and who so kindly spend SP credits on others.

Regards to all,   

JAP

[mike175]

Hi JAP,

Thanks for the info re. Scotland census. Actually this is a new area for me since, at the time this thread came up, I just happened to have found a distant cousin who had moved there. Otherwise, to my amazement, I have discovered that my ancestry seems to be almost exclusively from the southern half of England . . . and boringly normal as far as I can trace, which is back to the 16th century on some lines.

I currently have full access to the UK records on Ancestry (which keeps on getting better), and am always happy to look up anything . . . when time permits.

Mike.

[JAP]

Just to tie up another tiny loose end.

Earlier I mentioned a Barbara THOMSON in the 1841.  She was recorded as 45 so definitely too old unless an error.  Anyway, I've now realized she must be Barbaret (MCCOLL) THOMSON/MCTAVISH.

1841 Census - in a TURNER household at Auchabh, Lochgilphead are Daniel THOMSON 20 School Master, Matilda THOMSON Female Servant 15, and Barbara THOMSON 45, all born Argyll-shire.

Presumably this family:
John THOMSON m Barbra MCCOLL, 1814, Kilcalmonell & Kilberry
They had:
in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry
Flory THOMSON 1815
Donald THOMSON 1817
and in South Knapdale
Duncan MCTAVISH 1820
Matilda MCTAVISH 1824
John MCTAVISH 1827

Donald b 1817 is presumably Daniel the schoolmaster (Donald and Daniel being two other interchangeable names).

JAP
PS: Thanks very much Mike for the kind offer - I have had Ancestry access in the past and have probably done just about all I can with my lot (my own and my children's paternal ancestors).  Incidentally, I've spent a small fortune on ScotlandsPeople  on my own Scots ancestor (a Gggma who came to Australia) and my children's Scots ancestor (a Gggpa who came to Australia) - and much much more on what have turned into one-name studies of a couple of rare names on each side.  SP and the Scottish records are great - but oh so tempting when one can download such informative results immediately.

[sesd]

I received the death certificate for Barbary McBride yesterday.

Unfortunately, it doesn't give her parents, but does list her birthplace as Argyleshire, Scotland and her age at death (June 4, 1887) as 77 years 9 months which would make her born about Sep 1809. The date I have for Babby McTavish is Mar 08, 1807, which is close, but is it close enough for her son to have stated something else? Probably, I don't put a lot of faith in calculated birthdates given at death.

I did find son Dugald whose death certificate  lists his parents as Neil McBride and Barbara McTavish

[MonicaL]

Hi Sharon

Thanks for posting that last piece  Pity it didn't show her parents' names to tie up the loose ends but not necessarily unusual that her children did not remember the names of their grandparents.

The age at death and birthday, as you say, is also probably a sign of the times.

Hopefully you have gathered enough info to feel confident about Neil and Barbary's parents.

Regards.

Monica