William MORRIS - Llanllechid

[Washy]

Hi All
Been able to find farm on 1841 census thanks to you telling me William Mores. On farm as you said on earlier reply a William Williams & Elinor Williams but also Elinor Williams aged 1. I think this is my family & the censor has writen down wrong name. Been looking a long time for them & nowhere to be found in Caernarvon. I think this must be them. What do you think.   

[Judmarg]

I can not tell you if this is yours- are you sure of their births--
-the only way would be to hunt re Ancestry or go to the Caernarvon records office.You would be able to get a birth cert or trace chapel for baptism in Tregarth.

[Mair]

Washy

re the wrong name - NOT necessarily.  Patronymics may play a part here.  Now then this means a totally different slant on things. 

NB Anyone more "in the know" shout out please! if I get this wrong.

Here we go......possibly William Williams is the son of William "Something" but he takes his fathers first name as his surname.  He just happens to be called william after his father of course so he becomes not William "Something" jnr ..................but William Williams (the "S" indicating son of replacing the old Welsh of "ap") ie William ap William!!!  right......so then he decides to declare this as his name in 1841 and then in 1851 to say - hang on my fathers last name was Morris/Mores/Maurice of course and decides THEN to declare his lineage as we do today, by taking our fathers' surname - in the main of course- as our last name.

The reason why I think patronymics...... is by looking at the 1851 entries and seeing how repetitive certain first names are for the first born second born etc.

Have a look-up on patronymics - it can and still does blow your mind sometimes!

Mair

[Washy]

Hi Mair
Thanks for that  did I mention not expert. Funnily enough I understand what you mean, however thought that kind of thing only happened hundreds of years ago when people only had first name. Only way going to prove if William was William & Mary's son is to find Church records, probable Shiloh. Does anyone know where I'd find them? Tried to find Bangor & Carnarvon BMD/records office last night on net & is it me is there one, couldn't find one. Found Anglesey seems very helpful are they there. Remember something about Bangor University, can you conntact them or are you allowed to research there. My family didn't make it easy for me to trace  Thanks for help really appreciate it

[Mair]

Hi Mair
Thanks for that  did I mention not expert. Funnily enough I understand what you mean, however thought that kind of thing only happened hundreds of years ago when people only had first name. Only way going to prove if William was William & Mary's son is to find Church records, probable Shiloh. Does anyone know where I'd find them? Tried to find Bangor & Carnarvon BMD/records office last night on net & is it me is there one, couldn't find one. Found Anglesey seems very helpful are they there. Remember something about Bangor University, can you conntact them or are you allowed to research there. My family didn't make it easy for me to trace  Thanks for help really appreciate it

Ok there is a hotch potch of information out there but you must remember that BMD was not a legal requirement until 1875 and it had started back in 1837 - so that was nearly 40 years worth of incomplete records.  www.freebmd.org.uk
 
Parish churches were required to record baptisms and marriages and burials but the non conformists were not really and there are some chapels with great records and some with not so great.  The National Archives state that Gwynedd archives have the Shiloh records from 1857 - 1986.

Also at the Records office in Caernarfon will be the Penrhyn estate papers BUT the leases are held at Bangor University Archives. which may have to whom and for how much the farm was leased for from the Penrhyn estate.

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk    (search on the site for Penrhyn)

As to the patronymic thing - well - until my ggggrandfathers death in 1850 his son was known as John Thomas and is recorded as such in the 1841 census and then in the 1851 census is suddenly John Rowlands again.......thankfully he was at the same farm!  However his cousins from the Rowlands line (ie in todays society they should be Rowlands) we have Jones, Davies, Roberts and Williams from Beddgelert to Llanberis and the Llyn - following them during the "change of name" was a nightmare!  Thanks to John, David, Robert, William and Thomas Rowland -5 Rowland's brothers back in the early C19th century we ended up with 5 surnames in the late C19th onwards. 

The search for family continues

I hope you gain as much from your search as I did and do from mine.

Mair 

[Washy]

I'm a little wiser now thanks to you Mair. At least now I have a direction in which to search. Good luck in your search, hope someone is as helpful to you as you have been to me.
Best regards

Washy

[Mair]

Washy

I am always searching - one just never knows - it's that that drives most of us on here onward and upward - or is that backwards 

May i suggest, if you haven't done so already, go to the online catalogue of the gwynedd archives......even if you dont find any of your kith and kin it gives an absoutley fantastic insight into the gentry and the more lowly beings!  You get a feel for the life and laws that were lived with...it is an insight.

Good Hunting - and you know where we are should you need any assistance in your quest.

Mair

[WelshGen]

Some links that will help ....

Bangor Register Office, Town Hall, Bangor, Gwynedd, LL57 2RE

http://www.archivesnetworkwales.info/cgi-bin/anw/name_search?id=6207&acc_type=3

I've lost the address and phone No. for the Shiloh minister, will pop round to the Chapel now and have another look at it and post it here later 

[Washy]

Hi Welshgen Thanks for info. There are a few possibles for my gt grandmothers birth, a little confusion as to her exact age. 1839-41 & if she was registered Ellin Eleanor or Ellen.  Everything seems to point to Dec 1840 but then found her death Nov 1929 says 89, but on grave says 90. Always says Llandegai as birth place on census so am I right her cert would be under Bangor & Carnarvon not Carnarvon. On marriage cert says age 28yrs May 1869. On census age 1901 60, 1891 50, etc.  but on earlier say 11, 21 etc.          This is driving me to distraction.