My other Surname interest, SAINSBURY & BYRON

[Carino]

I have a Richard Mees Sainsbury born 1788 he has two other siblings, Hugh Byron and Phebe, their parents names were Richard and Mary Byron,  they lived in Wilton by Salisbury.

If anyone is also researching this family I look forward to hearing from you.

[avoidingvista]

Carino

I have been researching Sainsburys who came from Bridgwater Somerset to discover more about William born there in 1814 and his father, John. I have been through the St. Marys records and there are only a few entries, leading a Somerset archivist and I to conclude the Sainsburys were not C of E and their records are therefore likely to be less available. Although I have not established a proven link with your Sainsburys, I have uncovered info which may be of assistance if you have not already found it.

Richard Sainsbury is listed in The Clockmakers of Somerset by AJ Moore at Bridgwater in 1760s but Bellchambers book shows him linked to Chippenham Wiltshire in 1775 in addition to Bridgwater. I suspect that he is the father of Richard Mees Sainsbury and the siblings, Hugh Byron and Phebe that are listed in RG4 at PRO but cannot prove it. My theory is based upon the sibling Hugh Byron Sainsbury who baptised a son, also Hugh Byron, at St. Marys Bridgwater on July 31st 1814 being a Clockmaker as well. He has moved from Bridgwater to Islington by 1821 (see son's Baptism, Richard Henry, PRO RG4) and is still a Clockmaker.

There are also postings by Tim Robb and JenniB3889 in 03/04 which may potentially link. I have failed to contact either of these posters so far.


Richard Matthias Sainsbury, clockmaker, father of one Richard Percy Sainsbury,
clockmaker, born ca 1809, Bridgwater, Somerset, and died 1856/1857 in
Islington, London. Richard Percy married in London.

John Saintsbury ( 1766 - 1822 ) who between 1804ish to
1822 lived in Cowcross London, and had a clock and watch toolmaker warehouse.
His wife Ann (surname unknown but possibly DAVIS) was born in Bridgwater
abt 1768.


Hope this is useful

Jim

[Carino]

Hello Jim,

You have been very helpful and I am very grateful for your help.  I found a father for my Richard Mees Sainsbury, well, I think I have, going by Hugh Byron's name I found Richard  Ch. 24 August 1759 St Mary's Wilton by Salisbury, Wiltshire married to a Mary Byron 19 June 1783 St Mary, Wilton.

Richard Sainsbury is listed in The Clockmakers of Somerset by AJ Moore at Bridgwater in 1760s    if the Richard  above is right then this date would be too early ?

Then going by my Richard's middle name of Mees,  I found a marriage between a  Velantine Sainsbury, Beckington, Somerset born/Ch. 5 July 1716 to a Betsy/Elizabeth Mees they were married 17 May 1742 Beckington, St George, Somerset.  I could very well be wrong as this is all  guess work,  Its just I know sometimes that in families they use surnames as middle names later down the line and this is why I think that my Richard is related to Velantine & Betsy,  I don't have the sources only what I found on the net so maybe I am added it all up  wrong.

but Bellchambers book shows him linked to Chippenham Wiltshire in 1775 in addition to Bridgwater.  I would say that would be about right,  right place and the date being a bit  later.  Do you have a link to Bellchambers book's,  I will take a look in the mean time.

I couldn't find anything to do with Hugh Byron, so thank you for finding it for me,  the only thing I did  find was his Ch. date which was the same place as my Richard and his sister Phebe, it was at  Crow Lane Independent, Wiltshire,  I did find some information about it but that was quite a while back, whether I still have it I don't know,  I should have but where.  It looks like they were born in Wiltshire then moved to Somerset then onto London,  my Richard died in Clerkenwell 1853, is that anywhere near Islington ?:  my Geog is not very good at the top of my head.

I will look into the son Hugh Byron,  I didn't know the occupation of Clockmakers ran in the family,  I tried looking for a connection between Sainsbury's and Clockmaking on the Net but couldn't find any references to it,  Richard's daughter Mary Teresa married an Edwin Reader who also became a Clockmaker/watchmaker,  in 1841 Edwin is living in Islington as an apprentice to a James Hislop Watch manufactor,  so there's an Islington connection there.  So it seams like, Edwin met Mary through his connection between his and her fathers occupation, so did they work together,  I would love to know.

I've acutally seen a Richard Matthias Sainsbury on a number of occasions but couldn't place him within the ancestry,  could very well be the son of Hugh Byron as the date and location of birth fits in with Hugh Byron juniors information.

There seams to be a lot of attention around Clockmakers that its all seams too coincidental to ignore,  Bridgewater hadn't featured in my search but now I can keep an open mind and try to find that connection.

You have given me a lot to think about and I am very grateful for you taking an interest in this for me.  I don't think I would ever have found the information on my own,  sometimes I don't seam to think outside the box so to speak.

Thank you so much Jim,  you have raised my interest in this part of the family again,  it did go stale for a while,  so hopefully these new leads will lead me on to better things.

All the very best.

[avoidingvista]

Pleased it was helpful.

Comments:

1. I agree that 1760s in Bridgwater would be too early for your Wilton born Richard, father of Richard Mees Sainsbury. I not sure of the source the book used and therefore can't determine the accuracy of the date. Could there be two Richards? Although unclear, it appears there is a connection to Bridgwater and Clockmakers.

2. Book ref: Bellchambers, Jack Kenneth. Somerset Clockmakers. Ramsgate, England: Antiquarian Horological Society, 1968. Reprint Pub S.A. Kellow 1986 ISBN 0 9511315 0 8

3. Hugh Byron lived at 68 Compton St., Clerkenwell, London but the son's baptism was at an Independent church in Upper St Islington.

4. Bridgwater has no "e", important when searching.

5. I have copies of Hugh Byron's sons Hugh Byron & Richard Henry baptisms from PRs if you need look up.

6. There are no other Sainsbury baptisms than Hugh Byron at Bridgwater St. Mary 1715 to 1838.

7. Hugh Byron and Dinah (nee Hughes) Sainsbury marriage is not in Somerset index.

8. No entries of Sainsburys in Bridgwater Westfield United Reform Church (Independent) prior to 1837.

9. No Bridgwater Sainsbury entries in RG4 or 5 or 6.

Please keep me informed if you make progress. Further details of your family may help me to exclude options for William and John or may link.

Jim

[Carino]

Hello Bill,

I had a quick look at Freereg and saw the Bap date of  Hugh Byron Junior and saw his mothers maiden name of Hughes  but as you pointed out there was no reference to their marriage,  could they have been married in Wiltshire ?

I also googled for the book that you listed below,  sometimes they allow you to read extracts,  I searched for our Sainsbury but nothing came up,  I suppose I need to buy the book.

I would love to have a look up if you don't mind, that would be very nice of you thank you.

Thank you for your help,  if I find anything else I will let you know.

Thank you so much.

[avoidingvista]

Carino

I thought clockmaking might help unravel the tree so I have done more web research, checked books in the Library and so far found the information about Sainsbury clockmakers listed below. I am trying to piece them all together with your information and the rest into a trial tree. The dates don't yet align. What are your thoughts? Do you have additions or corrections?

My speculative thoughts:

1.   Are there two separate branches by this time and the only immediate direct connection with your branch is that Hugh Byron (b1786) went to work for a distant older relation, Richard Matthias Sainsbury in 1813 following the newspaper advert?
2.   It seems unlikely although not impossible that one Richard Sainsbury would have spanned 1765 and 1813 and therefore it is probable that two Richard Sainsburys were Clockmakers in Bridgwater in this period.
3.   From the dates it is likely that three generations, directly or indirectly related, called Richard, lived, although maybe not born, in Bridgwater between 1760 and 1813, the last being born there in 1808/09.
4.   The information for 1682 and 1775 seems to be contradictory.


Sainsbury Clockmakers Timeline (1675-1861)

1675 Robert Sainsbury of Market Lavington, Wiltshire, taken as apprentice to gunsmith, John London of Bristol, who also made clocks.

1682 Robert Sainsbury was made a free burgess of Bristol. No known clocks with his name but may have learnt the craft or have concentrated on gunsmith side of John London’s business. See http://www.brianloomes.com/collecting/jlondon/index.html

1682 Robert Sainsbury, Clockmaker, Bristol. See http://www.paulhyb.homecall.co.uk/misc/CLOCKMKR.TXT

1760s, Richard Sainsbury is listed in The Clockmakers of Somerset by AJ Moore at Bridgwater. Trying to check.

1765 Richard Sainsbury, Clockmaker, Bridgwater.  See http://www.paulhyb.homecall.co.uk/misc/CLOCKMKR.TXT

1775, Robert Sainsbury, Chippenham, Wiltshire is in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten.

1775, Richard Sainsbury is listed in Somerset Clockmakers by J.K. Bellchambers showing him linked to Chippenham, Wiltshire in addition to Bridgwater, Somerset. Trying to check.

1780, Richard Sainsbury, Bridgwater, Somerset is in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten

17xx Richard Sainsbury, Bridgwater, Somerset, an 18th Century oak longcase clock at auction 2005 see www.invaluable.com

1806-23, John Sainsbury, Clock and Watch Tools, Cowcross, London is in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten; cross checked in PO directory where surname is Saintsbury. His wife Ann (surname unknown but possibly Davis) was born in Bridgwater about 1768 and is living in Reading supported by the Society of Friends at the time of the 1851 census.

1808/09, Richard Percy Sainsbury, son of Richard Matthias Sainsbury, born Bridgwater, Somerset, and later a Watchmaker in London from the 1851 Census.

1810, dated clock by Richard Sainsbury of Bridgwater, Picture on p74 in Clocks and Barometers: Buyer's Guide By Judith H. Miller.

1813, In Taunton Courier newspaper of 28 Jan 1813, Sainsbury R - clock and watchmaker Bridgwater, journeymen wanted.

1814 Hugh Byron Sainsbury, a clockmaker b1786 in Wiltshire, has a son, also Hugh Byron, baptised at St. Marys Bridgwater.

1819 PO Dir London J Saintsbury Clock and Watch Tool Warehouse 2 Cowcross St. Also coal merchants.

1821 Hugh Byron Sainsbury, a clockmaker b1786 in Wiltshire, living at 68 Compton St. Clerkenwell has a son, Richard Henry, baptised at Upper St. Independent Church in Islington.

1835, Henry Sainsbury, Bath, Somerset in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten

1835 Henry Sainsbury, Clockmaker, Bath  http://www.paulhyb.homecall.co.uk/misc/CLOCKMKR.TXT

1840-2, Richard Sainsbury, Watchmaker, 9 Wingrove Place, Clerkenwell, London in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten and confirmed by 1841 census.

1841 Henry Sainsbury, son of John b1805, is born, from 1851/61 census.

1851 John Sainsbury, Clockmaker, b1805 Salisbury, Wiltshire living at 7, Halten Place, Islington in 1851 census.

1861 John, and son Henry, Sainsbury both Clockmakers at Compton St. in 1861 census.

I would really appreciate your thoughts. I haven't forgotten the other points, look ups etc. will answer later.

Jim

[Old Mother Reilly]

An aside, in case anyone else is looking for Sainsburys in Wiltshire ... from looking at the Bishops Transcripts for both St. John and St. Mary in Devizes there are one or two lines of a Sainsbury family which appear regularly from the earliest legible entries onwards. 

[Carino]

Hello Jim,

I was just about to log of my PC when I saw your message come through to my inbox,  so just before I knock off can I just reply to one of your Sainsbury's, ( I will look over the others tomorrow and reply )  the one you mentioned below is my Richard Mees Sainsbury,  I have him living at 9 Wingrove in 1841.  My Mary Terresa is living with him along with her older sister Jane.  Thank you Jim, I will write more tomorrow.  Goodnight.

1840-2, Richard Sainsbury, Watchmaker, 9 Wingrove Place, Clerkenwell, London in Old Clocks and Watches and their makers by F.J. Britten and confirmed by 1841 census.

[petercornish]

Hi Carino,

I am also researching the Sainsbury family and found the info given by Jim and yourself to be most useful.   Can you please say whether you have since been able to find birth/baptism details for Richard Percy and/or Richard Matthais SAINSBURY.

Regards   ...   Peter