1861 Southwark Census LAWRENCE and STUTTLE

[leaf]

Hi Bryant,

I'm sorry it's been so difficult trying to find Elizabeth Jane Stuttle or whatever her name may turn out to be.

I'm not sure about the Stut(t)er(s)  could just be a coincidence about the child Elizabeth J. 

I've followed your advice about asking for help, so now am hoping that another kind person can help.  I totally understand about the friendly elimination 

I like you am convinced that the Colchester carpenters must be part of the right family.

Thank you once again for all of your help.  I'll let you know when Arthur William Lawrence's birth certificate arrives.  leaf

[leaf]

Hi Bryant,

I've just received this morning's post and with it the birth certificate I ordered 

It was the one for Arthur William Lawrence that you found on the index for me, so thank you so much.  The certificate says it's the South West sub district of the City of London.  He was born in Bouverie Street, and the next bit is difficult to read looks like Whitehall, then London.  His father is William Lawrence and his mother is Ellen formerly Turner so the marriage I found in Sheffield is them , so I'll order that certificate next.  William Lawrence's occupation looks like Assist. to a Furnishing Ironmonger.

Thank you once again for your help.  leaf

[Bryant]

Question.............where do you go when you are a woman, you are pregnant, your husbands at work and you have a child who is one year old..........and your mum lives just across the river.

they married in 1875.............

1881
23 WARWICK STREET, ST GEORGE THE MARTYR, SOUTHWARK, SURREY
ARTHUR W LAWRENCE  HEAD  30  FILE MAKER  KENSINGTON, MIDDX
JANE              "              WIFE   26                      BOW, ESSEX
LILLIAN          "              DAUR   5                       SOUTHWARK, SURREY
ARTHUR W      "              SON     4                       KENSINGTON, MIDDX
FREDERICK      "                "       1                        SOUTHWARK, SURREY
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Question.............does Mum live just across the river in 1875........or did they as a family move back to Middx and then back to Surrey again?

Bouverie Street is where the Sun newspaper started life and then they moved to Wapping where all the conflict occurred.........off of Fleet Street..........Fleet Street goes into the Strand...........The Strand goes into Whitehall

So Bouverie Street is within 100 metres of the River Thames and just to the east is St Pauls Cathedral

Bryant

[Bryant]

I have a feeling that this is ARTHUR WILLIAM LAWRENCE in 1871

1871
8 SCHOFIELD ROAD, KINGS ROAD, FULHAM, MIDDX
WILLIAM LARENCE  BOARDER (UNM) 20 LABOURER AT GAS WORKS   SHEFFIELD, YORKSHIRE
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1871
21 SIMPSON STREET, BATTERSEA, WANDSWORTH, SURREY
WILLIAM LAWRENCE  HEAD  59 COMMERCIAL TRAVELLER (iron trade) Sheffield
ELLEN         "              WIFE   48                                                                  "
LILLIAN E    "              DAUR   19 ASSISTING AT HOME                           LONDON
FREDERICK A "           SON     17 ENGINEERS FITTER                   CHELSEA, MIDDX
AGNES A        "           DAUR   15                                                           "
FRANK J          "          SON      11                                                          "
EDWARD P     "             "          9                                                           "
EDITH M        "           DAUR      7                                                           "
HELENA B      "               "         6                                                           "
--------------------------

Bryant

[leaf]

Hi Bryant,

Once again thank you for your wonderful help.

I'm not sure who you are talking about in your questions? 

Thank you for the extra information about Bouverie Street, that was really interesting.

The census finds for 1871 were great too, more children I didn't know about.  I'm sure that's our Arthur William Lawrence also. 

Thank you, leaf

[Bryant]

Leaf

Applying a bit of logic...............also having a daughter who is expecting in a few weeks time who "at times" appears to live back home...........and she takes control of the remote control  bless her

I was referring to Jane Lawrence.................she had Lillian in 1875/1876 who was born Southwark............and a year later (1876/1877) she had Arthur William who was born Kensington (1881 census)............Yet Frederick was born 1879/1880 back at Southwark
The question is..............did they move to the other side of the river and then back again..............or did Jane have Arthur William at her mum's house taking Lillian aged 1 with her so that mum could look after them both?

Does Mum live in Bouverie Street in 1875.............?

Bryant

[leaf]

Hi Bryant,

I thought you were talking about Jane, but as we're not sure who her Mum is yet I wasn't positive.

Congratulations on the impending arrival of a grandchild.  I hope you get the remote back soon !

The Lawrence's weren't very accurate at recording when or where they were born the place of birth seems to vary from each census.  They did move about a lot.  I've got Arthur William living in Chelsea in 1861, Fulham in 1871, then with Jane in Southwark in 1875 and 1881, Whitechapel 1889, Newington 1891 and back in Southwark 1901.  Arthur died sometime before May 1909, which is when their daughter Edith got married in Southwark,  he could have died in 1904 if they didn't move out of Southwark.

leaf

[leaf]

Hi Bryant,

I've now got the marriage certificate for William Lawrence and Ellen Turner 

William Lawrence has an occupation of fender manufacturer (might make sense of the 1841 census?)  his father was also William Lawrence, a Bookkeeper and his mother may have been Betsy as she was one of the witnesses.

Ellen's father was called Benjamin Turner and he was a file manufacturer (same as his son-in-law).

They were living in Portmahon, Sheffield when they got married.

leaf

[Bryant]

The marriage cert ............. who was the other witness?
and does it state if BENJAMIN TURNER is deceased?

Betsy is another shortened version of Elizabeth!

1841
ST PHILLIPS ROAD, SHEFFIELD, YORKS
WILLIAM LAWRENCE  64  MERCHANTS CLERK  NO (NOT BORN YORKSHIRE)
MARY             "            54                                  YES (BORN YORKSHIRE)
SAMUEL         "            30 FENDER MAKER         YES
ELIZABETH     "            25                                  YES
--------------------------- 
it appears being a witness was the closest Betsy ever got to being married?

1861
8 VICTORIA STREET, KIMBERWORTH, YORKSHIRE (WEST RIDING)
MARY LAWRENCE  HEAD 74 (WID)                            SHEFFIELD
SAMUEL     "          SON   55 (UNM) BRONZIER                    "
BETSY        "          DAUR  40 (UNM)                                     "
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1851 REQUIRED for Leaf PLEASE

Bryant