Author Topic: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden  (Read 45282 times)

Offline wdurham

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #126 on: Thursday 31 May 07 07:20 BST (UK) »
Hello Judi -

I think the error re: William being the son of Thomas and Phoebe is widespread. It's simply the only entry on the IGI which "fits" - and as Beds is so well covered on the IGI, it is assumed to be correct.

There is no incontrovertible proof that William b 1792-ish is the son of John and Sarah Armstrong of Ravensden, because there appears to be no baptism. But the circumstantial evidence is almost overwhelming. Plus, of course, the fact that William of Upper Gravenhurst probably died in 1807.

The link backwards is also circumstantial: John Armstrong who died in 1826 in Ravensden aged 66 is likely to have been John Armstrong baptised in 1761 in Wilstead, son of John Armstrong and Edith Grange. John and Edith were both buried in Maulden by 1773, and the apprenticeship of their son William by the Maulden Overseers in 1766 indicates that they were poor, and possibly a charge on the parish.  How John got from Maulden to Ravensden is unknown, but he too could have been apprenticed or otherwise placed out by the Maulden overseers.

A new piece of linking evidence emerged just yesterday. A Sarah Armstrong was baptised in Maulden in 1766, daughter of John and Mary. I have no idea who John and Mary were - yet. I can't find a likely marriage for a John Armstrong and a Mary. The NBI doesn't turn up any unaccounted for Johns who could have been Sarah's father, other than John who was married to Edith! Did John perhaps have and acknowledge a child outside his marriage? We know he was in Maulden in 1766 because of William's apprenticeship.....

The only Sarah buried in Beds on the National Burial Index that isn't otherwise accounted for is Sarah buried in Ravensden in 1813 aged 47 - so born 1766 - a perfect match.

So the possibility is that John married (or perhaps didn't marry? if John Snr DID stray, then John and Sarah were half-brother and sister!) Sarah of Maulden, and they made their way to Ravensden before 1787 when their first child was baptised there. .

Fortunately the line back from John and Edith to the original John and Sarah born about 1670-1680 is fairly well documented, as are the links downwards from the Ravensden and Thurleigh families.

You and I are linked because your William 1792 and my John 1802 were almost certainly brothers - sons of John Armstrong and Sarah in Ravensden.

Re: UK research - virtually everything you need is available online nowadays.  The IGI covers Beds reasonably well, as David has outlined in an earlier post. But you need to watch out for member entries, which can be very misleading, ad they are great ones for extrapolating birth dates and places backwards from marriage entries!

Ancestry covers the census information from 1841 to 1901 and has a lot of other useful information, including the Wilstead parish records in their Parish and Probate database. FreeBMD is now virtually complete from 1837 to about 1912 and is excellent for locating certificates. FreeREG is also coming along, but you need to be lucky, as it is still in the very early stages. Family History Online is a pay-per-view database which has Bedfordshire well covered on the NBI, though virtually no other Beds information.  Genes Reunited, as you have already found, is valuable - though you need to be prepared for other people's errors - I once had a whole fictitious branch in my tree, because I confused two people with the same name from the same village! It took three of us almost a year to sort it all out....
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney

Offline judiplant

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #127 on: Thursday 31 May 07 08:02 BST (UK) »
My goodness - you guys are up early, aren't you??  Well - you were when I started this email!

Thanks for the responses.

Wendy - where do I find the Parish and Probate database on ancestry?  I've had a look through the complete list of databases and can't find it - mind you, since the latest "improvement" on the website I find it awkward to find AWT!

I'm a transcriber for freeBMD so already know the merits of that wonderful site.

The FHS in Vancouver may be manned with people with some knowledge of how to use the system - my local one doesn't seem to be.  (It's also by appointment only.)  The library is a far more pleasant place to view the microfiche copy I have of the Thurleigh parish records.  (no sitting in a dark room lit only by computer screens as is the FHC - is that normal?)

I'll go and have a look at FreeREG now.

Judi
Beds:  Armstrong, Baker, Gammons, Wrench, Cowley, Asplin
Som:   Cribb
Devon: Plant
London/Kent: Stewart, Webb
A'Court's anywhere

Offline wdurham

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #128 on: Thursday 31 May 07 08:28 BST (UK) »
Try here, judi:

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/epr/main.aspx

FreeREG doesn't have much Beds on it yet, but they have done Riseley.
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney

Offline judiplant

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #129 on: Thursday 31 May 07 08:37 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Wendy
Beds:  Armstrong, Baker, Gammons, Wrench, Cowley, Asplin
Som:   Cribb
Devon: Plant
London/Kent: Stewart, Webb
A'Court's anywhere


Offline castlebob

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #130 on: Friday 01 June 07 08:43 BST (UK) »
Hello Wendy,
You have John of Riseley dying in 1727 age 57 , plus wife Sarah age 76. I just wondered where you found their ages? I looked in the past with no success.
Thanks for the Samuel 31-page military career. I had seen that, but due to brain having a middle-aged moment, I'd only accessed the first page!
At some point, I'll dig out some of my Shillington stuff & see if we can get closer with that.
I don't know if I've mentioned it, but on a couple of Turvey Apprentice entries, 2 Armstrongs are listed as Armes. I have been told that some vicars/priests shortened the surname. This obviously wasn't a regular occurrence, but wonder if anyone else has noticed this?
Cheers,
Bob
Armstrongs of   Bedfordshire, England & Canonbie ,Scotland

Offline wdurham

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #131 on: Friday 01 June 07 09:00 BST (UK) »
Bob -

As I said the other day, most of the ages at death showing on the Ahnentafel I sent to you have been calculated by Legacy from the birth and death years. I usually supress this calculation as it can be misleading, because it makes one think that the actual death ages have come from records.

In most cases this is not so, and the age at death has been calculated.

If I have found a REAL death date, the NBI reference is usually in the notes.

re: the Armes, I have always thought they were a separate family?
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney

Offline castlebob

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #132 on: Friday 01 June 07 21:01 BST (UK) »
Hello Wendy & all,
Sorry Wendy, I hadn't seen your post on the thread yesterday showing the half-brother-sister possibility. It just goes to show it's worth re-reading the thread from time to time.
I got there by shuffling bits of paper around trying to find links to the tree.
I think the old 1850's tree compiled was ordered by the Methodist branches in Herts, & to spare any blushes, was "sanitized". This would explain why the names were in place, but the explanations weren't freely offered!
Next stop, the Shillington branch.
Cheers,
Bob
Armstrongs of   Bedfordshire, England & Canonbie ,Scotland

Offline castlebob

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #133 on: Saturday 02 June 07 10:28 BST (UK) »
Hello All,
Re: Thomas Armstrong of Upper Gravy; did anyone manage to prove his actual year of birth? I've seen ( & calculated) two options - 1756 & 1763.
If 1756, he may easily be a middle child of William Armstrong & Sarah (nee Pruden).
In the interim, I'll re-read the thread.
Thanks,
Bob
Armstrongs of   Bedfordshire, England & Canonbie ,Scotland

Offline wdurham

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Re: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden
« Reply #134 on: Saturday 02 June 07 11:32 BST (UK) »
No, Bob - no baptism found for him.

There is a member entry on the IGI which extrapolates his birth as 1763 in Upper Gravenhurst by assuming he was 25 on his marriage to Phoebe and was born where he was married - standard practice and usually wrong!

The 1841 census gives his age as 85 - so he could have been any age between 85 and 89. Phoebe is shown as only 70, though.

The NBI has the following entry:

Thomas ARMSTRONG Date  2 Sep 1846 Aged 90 Place Upper Gravenhurst Description St Giles Denomination Anglican County code BDF.

So I guess we are looking at about 1755-6.

I believe there is a possibility he could belong to John and Edith. They have only two recorded baptised children - William 1754 and John 1761, both baptised in Wilstead. Seven years is a BIG gap in those days among labourers - a child at least every couple of years was the norm. Thomas is a family name - John's brother was a Thomas.

For the same reason, I think it's possible that Samuel who married Sarah and produced daughter Edith in 1788 in Elstow could also have been a son of John and Edith.

Both Samuel and Thomas had daughters baptised Edith - which was not a common name in the family at that time. Indeed, it seems to have started with John's wife Edith Grange.

Both Thomas and Samuel pop up out of nowhere in 1788 - Thomas as the husband of Phoebe Wisson and father of Edith b 1789 in Upper Gravenhurst, and Samuel as the husband of Sarah and father of Edith b 1788 in Elstow.

There are only 16 Edith Armstrongs on the IGI, and most can be identified as either part of our existing Armstrong family, descendants of Edith Grange - OR the two daughters of Thomas and Samuel.

The single exception is Edith baptised in Houghton Conquest 25 Feb 1882, who died and was buried on 28 April 1822 in Houghton Conquest at 9 weeks old. She was the daughter of Elizabeth Armstrong, whom I have not yet been able to identify.

Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney