ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden

[wdurham]

"Does your Armstong tree link to William b 1791 Ravensden who married Ann Gammons of Thurleigh,  prior to 1821.  William's father was Thomas b 1763 & married Phoebe Wisson.  If so welcome to my tree, if not maybe David can find a link.   

William & Ann, had son Thomas b 1830 Thurleigh, who married Jane Sabey of Bolnhurst, they had son Charles b 1851 who married two Partridge girls from the same family nest. "

No, John, not thus far anyway.  I have only just returned to my Armstrongs after my initial dash backwards up the direct line from great-granny Sophia Chandler some 5-6 years ago. Sophia was the daughter of Eliza Armstrong and George Chandler of Marston Moretaine, Eliza in her turn being the daughter of John Armstrong and Eleanor Green.

I have a William Armstrong - b 1839, son of John and Eleanor, but he's the only one so far. He went on his travels quite early in life, marrying Frances Woodcraft of Millbrook in 1857 and ending up in Walsall by 1871.

However, for this branch I have been very dependent on the IGI, and as David has already proven, not everything is on Family Search by any means! William above, for instance, is missing from the Ravensden baptisms of John and Eleanor's children - or perhaps he just wasn't baptised?

But a William b 1791 in Ravensden would fit very well with John and Sarah's brood....perhaps John Snr (b 1760) had a brother named Thomas, and they moved to Ravensden together?

I would have a look, but Family Search is now completely down....

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Wendy & John

John, don't blame me, you did invite me to find a link!

It may be cat and pigeons time! I have to question whether Ann Gammons is the mother of Thomas. The BVRI has a marriage in Thurleigh on 1 July 1827 between William Armstrong and Ann Wrench, then baptisms of Sarah on 16 March 1828; Thomas on 17 Apr 1831; Eli on 26 Apr 1835. The problem arises as to who William age 20 is in 1841 living with them. Looking at 1851 it looks as though he was born in Wilden – there’s a christening in Wilden on 19 May 1822 of William son of William & Elizabeth. There’s a marriage on 24 Dec 1816 at Wilden between William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin and there’s a burial of Elizabeth Armstrong age 29 on 24 Feb 1825 at Wilden. It looks as though this William the elder might be the William who married in Thurleigh in 1827. But where does Ann Gammons come into the picture? Unless Ann Wrench was also a widow, maiden name Gammons, but the pre 1821 marriage must be wrong.

I also question if William was the son of Thomas and Phoebe. There’s no William christened in Ravensden or Thurleigh c 1791 on either the IGI or BVRI. But there is a William christened in Upper Gravenhurst, 15 miles away, on 27 May 1792, son of Thomas and Phoebe. Thomas and Phoebe Wisson were married in Upper Gravenhurst on 10 Oct 1788. There’s also a burial in UG of a William Armstrong on 7 Aug 1807 but it would need the PR to try to establish if it’s the same William. How have you connected William in Thurleigh in 1830 and the Upper Gravenhurst Armstrongs? Big fluorescent red question marks flashing in France! (and they're not flashing about the result of today's presidential election)

I'm not questioning: Thomas Armstrong, father William, married Jane Saby, father Thomas, on 12 Oct 1846 at Thurleigh, even though they were only 16

"She was only sixteen, only sixteen
He loved her so
But she was too young to fall in love
And he was too young to know"

I can’t prove a link into Wendy’s Armstrongs, but as there are no unexplained Armstrong burials in Thurleigh or Ravensden, and as there’s no-one unexplained in the two parishes in 1841 I have to wonder if William could be the son of John and Sarah – given their very patchy baptism record it wouldn’t surprise me if he got missed

Wendy – yes, the BVRI is only available from the LDS in Birmingham, but check the contents first on http://www.genoot.com/downloads/BVRI2/
Coverage is very patchy, and some people have found it no help at all. But if “your” county is not well covered on the IGI then it can be very useful. Hunts for example is one of my three counties and I swear by the BVRI (much as I’m swearing at the IGI today!). In Beds it’s useful in topping up bits post 1812 missing from the IGI  eg Ravensden and Thurleigh – and it includes the baptism of William son of John and Eleanor in Ravensden on 17 Dec 1837

Regards to both

David

[wdurham]

John -

The IGI just popped up the answer to this search:

WILLIAM ARMSTRONG     
     Male         
         
Event(s):
   Birth:
   Christening:     
27 MAY 1792      Upper Gravenhurst, Bedford, England
   Death:
   Burial:
         
Parents:
     Father:     THOMAS ARMSTRONG    Family
     Mother:     PHOEBE

A member submitted entry supplies Phoebe's surname as Wisson.

Now the census returns say Ravensden in 1851 and 1861 - but if William could not read or write, and the enumerator misheard him.....

[johnP-bedford]

Hello David ( & Wendy)

When I said '..... maybe David can find a link' it wasn't a challenge ... but you've taken up the baton. so run with it.

Anyway, the info I gave was (most likely) second hand from data I've gleaned from other multiple peoples trees,  not that its officially recorded in my tree, as I havent checked it out until now... If two people say the same thing I assume it's most likely correct.  William Armstrong was married to an Ann (assumed Gammons). I have him born 1791 & died 1869, & her b 1790 & died 1877. There were children, Sarah 1828 who married Thomas Cowley, Thomas 1830 who married Jane Sab(e)y, & Eli 1835 who mrried Mary Asplin. There is also a William 1821.   From these same sources came Thomas Armstrong & Phoebe Wisson both from Upper Gravenhurst. 

So take it on, or leave it be.. I think I need to review info next time I visit the Archives. 

Cheers John 
PS what's the 2 week's time weather forecast predict.... ? . 

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi John

Where there are doubts recourse to the PRs is the only answer. I've flagged my areas of doubt - and often a different set of eyes sees things totally differently (and not necessarily correctly!).

Unfortunately it's only the Upper Gravenhurst entries that will be in the transcripts so a day off and a trip to the Archives seems to be required.

Miserable and cold and wet recently, but Thursday is forecast 80 +, so bring your factor 30! Edit - And a hat! But NOT a knotted handkerchief
All the best

David

[johnP-bedford]

Wendy - sorry, seems I've hijacked your topic...

David,   the IGI (being responsive now) gives me marriage of Ann Gamons to Wm Rench on 12 Oct 1812 at Thurleigh. Don't know why we needed the IGI, it's in the Thurleigh PR transcript all along, I've have it & I've just read it.  I thought red wine was meant to improve the senses !

Cheers John

[bedfordshire boy]

Good find. So it was probably a second marriage for both. A William Wrench age 34 was buried at Thurleigh on 17 Jan 1819. It took a bit of a long time for her to remarry, but it all fits. So Mary Gammons was the mother of your Thomas (subject of course to confirmation from the PR that Mary Wrench was a widow on marriage to William Armstrong, widower!)

I wonder if Wilden PR will be helpful and give William's parish of residence for the 1816 marriage?

Chin chin

David

[wdurham]

No worries, John - what a fascinating afternoon!

So your William 1791 Ravensden is in fact Upper Gravenhurst.

And my missing William 1839 is in fact William 1837 Ravensden.

Now here's a question. The Ravensden records in the IGI which supplied the baptisms of the children of Eleanor Green and John Armstrong in Ravensden are extracted records. Yet William is missing.

The BVRI has William, but doesn't have the later children Sophia 1841 and Emma 1843.

As both surely come from the same source, the parish records, why the discrepancies?

Having said earlier that the only Ravensden Armstrongs in 1841 were John Jnr and his family, I have now found a Ravensden population count for 1831 on the Beds CC website, and again, John Jnr and his family are the only Armstrongs.

"Only sixteen..." - showing your age, David!

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Wendy

The BVRI has more than I've mentioned to date -
Ann 18 Sept 1836
Eliza 18 Sept 1836 with a year against it of 1833 which doesn't tie up with the 1841 census
Sophia 11 Apr 1841 with a year of 1831, which is totally adrift!
Emma 14 May 1843 (can't see her in either census)
Even worse is Rebecca 18 Sept 1836 with a year of 1795!

I have found the same thing in Southill where the year against the entry, presumably based on the age of the the child being noted in the register, has been calculated incorrectly. I wish they'd just add a note "age 4" or whatever rather than deduct 4 from the baptism year and put a year in.

I don't know why William should have been missed from the IGI - perhaps it was simply that - he was missed! Ravensden doesn't appear on the Hugh Wallis site, so possibly this is a fairly recent batch - it's different to the usual C batches in that it's all lower case. And the LDS has done weird things with recent extractions - like extracting only females. And looking quickly I can't see any male names after 1812, and a search against the batch number and "John" or "William" shows nothing after 1812. It might be that the PR has been fully extracted up to 1812 and females only thereafter.

Speaking of the IGI. it's better than it was yesterday, but still in go slow/error message mode for anything but the simplest search. One shouldn't complain about such an incredible free facility, but one does!

I still remain to be convinced about the Upper Gravenhurst William! One enumeration error Ravensden for Gravenhust perhaps, but two is pushing it, but not impossible. But I wouldn't want to hang my hat on that being the sole supporting evidence other than the age fits.  I'd like to see what Upper Gravenhurst PR says about the about the 1807 burial and the Wilden PR about the 1816 marriage. Bit of a coicidence though, that an Armstrong from Upper Gravenhurst should pitch up in Ravensden where there's just the one Armstrong family. (Might John have been from Upper Gravenhurst? - although there's still no marriage)

But it does seem as though the Ravensden Armstrongs did eventually baptise their children, so why would they have missed William? But there is a big gap between Ann born 1791 (subject to this date from the BVRI being correct) and Edith in 1798. I never like large unexplained gaps!

Not so much as showing my age as finding it increasingly difficult to hide it! I have a 7 year old son who only knows songs from the 60's (plus Meatloaf)!

Regards

David