ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden

[wdurham]

John-P -

Thanks for the info re: the Shotley Taxpayers which you have explained on the Partridge thread here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237667.15.html

I have been researching the "posh" Armstrongs to try to find a link with our Ag Labs, and Charles Armstrong came up as a Shotley taxpayer on Ancestry in the Beds Parish & Probate records....a totally garbled entry of which I could make no sense till I googled "Shotley taxpayers" and came up with your above thread!

Following your explanation, from the following entries:

A157 Armstrong, Chas., yeoman Houghton Conquest 21 01 Feb 1783 L 33 B261 -
L 33 Larkin, Sarah Houghton Conquest - - A157 B261 - 
B261 Bond, Stephen, dairyman Biddenham - - - - A157, L??

- I derived the information that Charles Armstrong, yeoman of Houghton Conquest, (aged? over?) 21, applied for a marriage licence on  01 Feb 1783. His intended was Sarah Larkin, and bondsman was a Stephen Bond.

According to the IGI, Charles Armstrong married Sarah Larkin or Larkinson on 25 May 1783. A big gap between application and marriage? Was this common, I wonder?

However, that's not my point.

This particular Charles could be one of two people, and it's important to know which!

He could be the son of Charles 1712 and Althamia Armstrong, b 1750 in Steppingley. Although both Burkes and a history of the family written in 1775 state that all Charles and Althamia's children died in infancy.

Alternatively he could be the the illegitimate Charles Armstrong alias Barton who may have been born to Charles 1712 and Mary Barton before they married in Graffham in 1759. Certainly Charles 1712 and Mary Barton were "fornicating" before their marriage (Mary was given penances by the church!), and something happened in 1758 which caused Charles 1712's mother to cut him out of her will.

Charles Armstrong alias Barton is named in Charles 1712's will as the son of Mary his wife, who was to have the residue of the Graffham estate to him and his heirs forever, once Mary had paid her bills and supported the rest of "her family". He is not mentioned as being a minor. Charles 1712's 5 children by Mary within their marriage were all left specific legacies - John got the HC estates, Philip named farms in Graffham, and the three girls - Frances, Althamia and Mary - got money to be paid when they came of age. All five children were minors.

After the death of Charles 1712 in 1780, it seems that Mary and her family moved to Houghton Conquest, as she was to have possession of the lands there until John reached his majority. Her daughter Althamia (another Shotley taxpayer!) married George Townsend of Wrestlingworth in HC in April 1783, just weeks before the marriage of Charles to Sarah.

Would some kind soul who might have access to the Houghton Conquest records look up the marriage of Charles and Sarah in 1783 and see if there is any further information on the record which might give an age for Charles or perhaps even his parentage? If he was indeed 21 in 1783 as the "Shotley" record suggests, that puts his birth at around 1762, and I am then at a loss to know who the hell he was! If the "21" simply meant he was OVER 21, then he could have been born at any time. Sarah's probable burial in Graffham aged 77 in 1836 puts her birth at 1759. Charles' probable burial in Graffham in 1800 gives no age, sadly.

Separately, and I will put it here although it belongs on the Hunts board, because it's all related, I am looking for children born to James Measures and Aolti Mira Armstrong in Ellington between 1812 and 1833. I have three of them - Aolti Mira Measures, Elizabeth Measures, and James Measures. These are all member entries on the IGI, but have precise dates so are probably correct.  I suspect there may have been at least one other son born about 1818.

Would the BVRI help, David?     David, I have now done what I SHOULD have done in the first instance, and found the answer to this on the Hunts thread! Please disregard!
Thanks to anyone who can cast any light....

Wendy

[johnP-bedford]

Isn't it interesting when you starting investigating another line in your family tree the same old names come up again.

My grandfather's second wife Mabel Bishop's brother Tom married Dorothy Phyllis Cox in 1914. Her sister Hilda Mildred b 1889 Knotting married John William Armstrong born 1887 Thurleigh in 1909. This Armstrong's great grandfather is William Armstrong (1792 Ravensden) who married Elizabeth Franklin.

I have the lineage if anyone wants it.

cheers John

[bedfordshire boy]

John, you must be getting desperate for lines to research if you're following your grandfather's second wife's sister in law's brother in law's ancestry!!!

David

[jarmstrong]

Hi everyone

I've been reading your messages with great interest, thanks to Wendy and her response to my 'Genes Reunited' message. I'm intrigued by Thomas and John being undocumented sons of John and Edith, as my 'tree' stems from said Thomas.  It does seem too much of a coincidence that all the branches spring up at around the same time and same area otherwise. 

To add to this, my father (who is now 86), was told by an aunt when he was a boy that the family left the Sunderland area 'under a cloud' - she neglected to mention what it was about and when they left!  To ask questions as a child was not an option back in those days, so yet another point to ponder in the Armstrong history in Bedfordshire! Any thoughts, anyone?  Wendy has mentioned that prisoners were taken by English landowners for ransom and to prevent them from causing trouble as a possibility.

I am going to try to get either my father or one of my three brothers to take the DNA test, otherwise I may try one of my four nephews instead.  If I can get one of them to do this, how do I proceed? 

Ann - we have Isaac in common - he's my 3 x great-grandfather via his marriage to Elizabeth, nee Hall, but I cannot trace her death and his remarriage - could I be so bold as to ask you for the information as I would like to make my tree as complete as possible?  The same is on offer in return!  I've yet to get to grips with the records that exist away from the 'Genes Reunited' site as I've just been doing the basic work-up from there so far (only back on line at home for three weeks after three years without home use); taking the line of least resistance, so to speak!  Had a couple of slip ups, mainly due to trying to do the tree after a full day's work and falling asleep, making siblings into spouses etc., with one false slip of the mouse!

Take care.

Janet

[castlebob]

Hello Janet,
Great to read your posting as a number of us have spent decades trying to prove the Upper Gravenhurst & associated familes' links to the rest of us. I co-admin FTDNA's Armstrong Y-DNA Surname Group project, so will send a private message to you.
Cheers,
Bob

[judiplant]

Hi Janet

I'm also a member of this esteemed family!  To answer your question about Isaac's wife Elizabeth Hill - she died June qtr 1877 Ampthill, and he married Martha Anderson b. abt 1841 Luton, in Mar qtr 1878 Luton (both references from free BMD website, and Martha's age from the 1881 census).

I convinced my Dad to take the DNA test a couple of years ago - he agreed to do so as long as it didn't cost him one of the few hairs he had left!!  Hope your Dad will get it done as it's about time we connected with Thomas and Phoebe.

Best of luck

Judi (nee Armstrong)

[quest40]

Hi Janet,
I was interested to learn about your connection to Isaac Armstrong - my husband is descended from him via his second marriage to Martha Anderson - their daughter Lizzie was my husband's maternal grandmother.
Best wishes, Ann

[wdurham]

Glad to see you found your way here, Janet.

If you've managed to plough your way through all the messages, you'll see the unfolding of the story I gave you in a nutshell on G-R earlier in the week...

It was the DNA test that Judi mentions that finally gave us the proof that the Thurleigh and Ravensden Armstrongs were linked not only to most other branches but also to each other - ergo, that all our suppositions that William 1792, who founded the Thurleigh branch, was an undocumented (i.e. unbaptised) son of John and Sarah of Ravensden were correct.

If one of your guys can tie in the Upper Gravenhurst Armstrongs to our lot, that would be a real breakthrough!  Then there would only be Samuel and his Busby Armstrong descendants left unlinked.

[jarmstrong]

Hi Wendy

I will be working on the males of the family very shortly.  My dad will probably be interested, but keeping him off of having a cup of tea for four hours (as has to happen before the cheek swab test) may be testing my theory!  I'm sure he will and I will be going to see my parents this weekend, so I can work on him then. 

Thank you for directing me to this site - I've picked up quite a few more threads from here and the internet generally, such as the area of south London (Southwark/Elephant & Castle) which became known as 'Little Shillington' due to so many of the ex-Shillington-ites settling there - certainly true on my side of the 'tree' - gt-grandad Samuel married gt-grandma, Susan Belcher, there in 1898! (Headed north of the river shortly therefter, as my grandad was born in Highgate in 1901.)
 
I am having problems with my 'GR' site at the moment - I'm hoping that I haven't lost the last few weeks work, though most is written down.  I am hoping that I don't have to input it again, although I am not holding my breath - awaiting reply from the 'GR' support team imminently.

I will keep you informed of progress re:test - watch this space, as they say!

Take care.

Janet