ANN / ALICE MANN - A Penny For Your Thoughts

[Saxlingham]

Dear Andrew

Thank you very much for going to such trouble.  Thomas Shaw looks like a likely candidate for Robert's father.

Best wishes and thanks

Louise

[heywood]

well stanleymansion - this is so interesting. I bet you didn't bargain for this much info. 
best wishes to you all
heywood

[stanleymansion]

ErrorSPAM REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.]Hi Andrew

You are a star! Thank you so much for digging out those records for us.

I never imagined that these sorts of records existed never mind the large number of people that seemed to go through this process. Until now I had read little about the Poor Law Acts; it's certainly an eye-opener! These two guys had a fair amount of money to pay out for what perhaps started out as an evening's pleasure!!

Looks as though we've found one dad, so will have to keep fishing!

Thanks again Andrew. By the way, did this just grab your imagination, or do you have a personal involvement somewhere along the line?[/color]

Hi Louise

Looks like Robert Kaye  is James Fishwick's dad all the dates tie up so I think that is a dead cert. As for Robert, not sure   . I've got all 'the Fishwicks and Fiswicks(!)' spread out on the lounge floor and I'm trying to put them into families, unsuccessfully at the moment.

So, I wonder who this other male child is born 5 April 1924? Wonder whether this one is the same Hannah or yet another?  I was sure that was going to be our Robert too! I  got the 1822 date from a christening date of 13/12/1822 on Family Search, only the mothers name of Hannah Fishwick is given.

I've found someone on Genes with a Robert Fishwick 1822 Chorley, I've emailed, so will see if anything there! Also someone called Louise with  a Robert born 1824 Chorley. Is this you? Also quite a few people with Hannah Fishwick 1797-1799; worth following up? Has someone been down this way already?

This is becoming so convoluted. Can of worms? We could write a book!

Hi Heywood

Isn't this great!! I never imagined anything like this would happen! The amount of info is incredible ... and everyone is so so helpful! Thanks for your good wishes; you know you are very welcome to toss in any thoughts that spring to mind. We need all the help we can get!

Lyn

PS Just occured to me ... does anyone think we should link to another thread with a Robert Fishwick title? Seems we've moved on from Ann and Alice somewhat. I don't know how to do that though!!

 

[Saxlingham]

Hi Lyn, hi everyone,

Now we've got almost too much information, too many Ann/Hannahs and too many Roberts.  The tricky bit is always knowing which bits are red herrings. I'm not yet ready to give up on Thomas SHAW as a dad. Roberts date of birth is not yet certain.

The censuses give ages of 15 in 1841 (they rounded ages in that one), 28 in 1851, 37 in 1861, 47 in 1871, and 57 in 1881. He was 66 when he died in 2nd April 1890. These make 1824 as likely as 1822.

Now for the next challenge... everyone seems so resourceful I thought I would ask for some thoughts about Robert's wife.

Let's start in 1881...
- Robert FISHWICK   Head   M   Male   57 Chorley, Lancs, Optv Cotn Spinner     
 Betsy FISHWICK   Wife   M   Female   47   Newton Moor, Lancashire, England       
 James FISHWICK   Son   U   Male   19   Halloway, Lancashire, Optv Cotton Piecer     
 George FISHWICK   Son      Male   13   Halloway, Lancashire, England       
 Elizabeth FISHWICK   Dau      Female   11   Atherton, Lancashire, England   Scholar     
 Alice FISHWICK   Dau      Female   9   Atherton, Lancashire, England   Scholar     
 Robert FISHWICK   Son      Male   7   Atherton, Lancashire, England   Scholar     
 Janett FISHWICK   Dau      Female   4   Atherton, Lancashire, England   Scholar     
Same address different household
 Alfred WHITE Lodger Head M Male 21 Lowton, Lancs Operv Cotton Spinner
 Rachel WHITE Wife M Female 22 Halloway, Lancs
 John WHITE Son Male 9 m Atherton, Lancashire
 Mary WHITE Dau Female 2 Atherton, Scholar
Source Information: Dwelling 83 Elizabeth St, Atherton,
Family History Library Film 1341911
 Public Records Office Reference RG11. Piece / Folio 3809 / 50 p 19

We know from marriage data that Rachel's maiden name is Bradley and the parish records give no details of a father. Betsy is her mother also maiden name BRADLEY but in 1871 they are all called FISHWICK

- Robert FISHWICK   Head   M   Male 47 Optv Cotn Spinner, Chorley,
 Betsy FISHWICK   Wife   M   Female 37 wife of do, Newton, Lancashire,   
 Elizabeth FISHWICK   Dau    Unm 19   Piecer in cotton mill, Chorley, Lancs (his)
James FISHWICK   Son   10   Halliwell, Lancashire,  (Theirs)
Rachel FISHWICK Dau 13 Cotton Piecer do (hers)
George FISHWICK   Son      3   Halliwell, Lancashire (theirs)
Elizabeth FISHWICK   Dau      1   Atherton, Lancashire, (theirs)
Peter FOGG Lodger Mar 27 Optv Cotn Spinner Bolton
Jane FOGG wife Mar 27 Cotton operative Belmont, Lancs
At 135 Bolton Old Road, Atherton
 in 1861 Robert is widowed and living with the older Elizabeth (His wife, 2 of his daughters and his daughter in law were all Elizabeth FISHWICK) so I looked for Betsy and Rachel. No luck as Bradley but I did find this

1861 – Possible entry with surname Greenalgh. No likely Bradleys or Betsys
William GREENHALGH H M 49 Cotton handloom weaver, Bolton
Alice GREENHALGH Wife M 46 Bolton
John GREENHALGH Son 13 Piecer in cotton factory, Bolton
Betsey GREENHALGH Dau 26 Cotton factory worker Bolton
Elizabeth GREENHALGH U 17 Powerloom weaver Bolton,
Rachel GREENHALGH D 4 Scholar, Halliwell
At 8 Hill Street Halliwell
 I may seem a long shot but for 3 things, one of the witnesses to Robert and Betsy's marriage is living next door but one the other is John GREENHALGH; there is a marriage in Bolton in 1843 between a William GREENHALGH and a Betsy BRADLEY my Grandfather was adamant there were Greenhalghs in the family.  But then why is she a spinster with no mention of Greenhalgh on her M cert. And why is she down as born Bolton here whereas later she says Newton and Newton Moor?

Going back further I found

1851 -Nile St, Great Bolton HO107/2210 F339
William GREENHALGH, head, married, 40, weaver, b. Bolton Lancs.
Alice GREENHALGH, wife, married, 38, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs.
John GREENHALGH, son, 5, scholar, b. Bolton Lancs. (Theirs)
Betsy GREENHALGH, Daur, 16, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs. (Hers)
M(e)ahiah?? GREENHALGH, Daur, unmarried, 19, factory hand, b. Bolton
Lancs. (His)
Mary HUNNIFORD, lodger, 13, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs.

and in 1841
York Street Bolton
Mary COLLINS 40 independent means
William COLLINS 1
Anne ORMROD 33 washer woman
Alice BRADLEY 75 ditto
Alice BRADLEY 27 Cotton **nter
James BRADLEY 37 Labourer
Betsy BRADLEY 5

Does anyone have any thoughts to add???

Thanks and sorry for the ramble

Louise

[heywood]

Hello,
it's a bit late to take all this in but I see a marriage for a William Greenhalgh and Alice Bradley 1843 Bolton (not Betsey)  - am I confused?  Are they Betsey's parents as in census details you have given?

[Saxlingham]

Hi

Your right about 2 things - It is too late, and it IS Alice.  I think Alice is Betsy's mum and William her step dad. I think Robert, Betsy and Rachel are all illegitimate.

Good night

Best wishes

Louise

[andrewalston]

I do have a bit of a personal interest. I have a couple of Fishwicks in my tree - very distant, but it's a local name. J. Fishwick and Sons still run buses and coaches from their Leyland base.

When I'm getting stuck on some part of my own tree, it's nice to get some success on someone else's. Proves the brain is not dead! I've found a good few nuggets in these court records, including the errant father of one of my ggg grandmothers.

.. And I happen to live in Charnock Richard. Always keen to hear the local scandal, even if it is nearly 200 years old!

A pointer for searching A2A. I find the most useful search is something like:-
   fishwick near20 charnock
which looks for the words "fishwick" and "charnock" within 20 words of each other. There will be times when you get the first word in one item and the second word in the next, but it gives quite decent results.

This search also pulls up a bastardy order for the daughter of George Calderbank, labourer, and Ann Fishwick, in 1817. Any sisters obvious in the info you have?

[heywood]

Hello everyone,

Now 1881 has :
Robert Fishwick b 1824 Chorley married to Betsey living in Atherton.

Robert Fishwick b 1826 Chorley married to Alice living in Bradford Manchester

Robert Fishwick b 1818 Bolton married to Harriet living in Halliwell.

1871 has:
Robert and Betsy
Robert and Alice
Robert (now born Lancaster) and Harriet 
plus
Robert b 1818 a lodger born Little Bolton - married and living in Great Bolton - wonder if this is the same as Harriet's husband?

1861 has:
Robert b Whittle le Woods with Alice
Robert born Teatern with Harriet

can't see the others at first look but there must be one who belongs to you Saxlingham

at the moment I am not going to explore this but would the real Robert Fishwick please stand up?

Are we referring to the same Robert in Saxlingham's family being the same one who is father to Ann Mann?

I'm not sure if I have a theory here - just presenting this to you.
best wishes
heywood

[Saxlingham]

Hi

I am fairly confident that the below are all for "my" Robert FISHWICK senior, and that he is Ann MANNs father, she even has the Fishwick nose.

1841 -  Census, Chorley. Leigh Row.
Thomas Rodget 35, Weaver.
Hannah, wife 40. Robert, 15. Ann, 8. 

 Chorley Rate Book 1849 and 1850 Robert Fishwick Cowling Bridge, (district just outside Chorley.)

1851 –
HO/107/2263/279.  65 Cowling Bridge, Chorley
Robert FISHWICK/Head/Marr/28/Cotton Spinner/Lancashire, Chorley/
Mary FISHWICK/Wife/Marr/28/Go. Pease/Lancashire, Manchester//

1861 –  Piece No 3141 Folio 17b
 They are in Walton Le Dale, which is just north of Chorley.
- Robert FISHWICK, Widow, 37 Cotton Spinner, Lancs Chorley
Elizabeth FISHWICK, Dau 9, Scholar, Chorley,
John WADDINGTON, Nephew, 14, Cotton Spinner Piecer, Lancs Blackburn

Later censuses are posted in a previous posting

Louise