Birth and Marriage look ups- Ellis c1840

[patrish]

Oh boy is this a tough nut 

On 1881 I have searched for any James no surname born Portsmouth living in sussex nothing and Henry nothing.

Have you got James and Ellen's marriage cert?

Looking at the overall picture I note that James was about 37 when his first child was born, and his gives his father on his second marriage to Hannah as a Sailor.   I am wondering if perhaps James was previously a sailor and therefore away at sea during the missing census's,  .




I will keep looking. 

[jonalex]

I too have found it tough!

Re any certs for James and Ellen, the only ones I have are the death of Ellen and the second marriage of James Henry (to Hannah).

The only certs I have but have not previously mentioned are a marriage cert for Frederick John Ellis (19.12.1909) in Portsmouth at the age of 35, showing his father as James Henry Ellis, florist (master).
The last cert I have is for the death of Lily (by now, Lily Radford after a second marriage) in 1974.

I too have considered the possibility that James's  father may have been away at sea, but it still doesn't explain why there is no trace of birth details for (either) James Henry Ellis or Ellen Warner, or their marriage, or their whereabouts during census time. As far as I am aware, spouses and children did not go to sea with their sailor husbands in those days, - or did they?
jonalex

[patrish]

Did it give James as a Widower on his marriage to Hannah 

[jonalex]

Hello again!

Yes, he is shown as a 52 year old widower and flower seller.
He was also shown as a widower and flower seller in the 1891 census.

jonalex

[patrish]

Found this is on the IGI

James Ellis ch 25.7.1841 St. Nicholas, Rochester, Kent

Father James  Mother Mary

Thought it was worth a mention as Rochester and  Chatham are naval area's.  I tried to cross reference on the complete bmd  from 1838  but could not find one. 

There are these entires exactly the same as above

Frederick ch .17.4.1835

John   ch. 9.4. 1837

[jonalex]

Many thanks - another option to look at.

I'll see if I can find that James and Mary on later census returns.
jonalex

[patrish]

Another thought that has ocurred to me is perhaps James was married or living with someone before Ellen, given his age but that still does not account for why he can not be found as a child. 

I dont think sailors wives accompanied them, I know some soldiers wives were allowed to , my gt, grandmother did.

[jonalex]

Yes, Patrish, it's certainly an odd one.

I can't understand why I can't find anything about Ellen either.

At the moment I'm going off on a tangent, looking at the family (parents and siblings) of Gertrude Warner, the visiting governess I mentioned, just in case she happens to be Lily's mother's sister !  I think I'm confusing myself now