Birth and Marriage look ups- Ellis c1840

[jonalex]

Hi,
Can somebody please help me by tracing the birth of James Henry Ellis (or Elliss) in the Eastbourne or Hastings area, in c1840.

I have his children's birth certs. and have traced him on the 1891 (age 51)  and 1901 (age 61) census returns but can find no trace of his birth or marriage.

His son's birth cert shows that in 1873 he was living in East Hill Passage, All Saints, Hastings.
His daughter's birth cert shows that in 1879 they were living in West Street, St. Clements, Hastings.
Their mother (James' wife) is shown as Ellen Ellis, late Cook, formerly Warner.
I can find no trace of any of them until the 1891 census, except for Ellen's death in 1885 (aged 46).
I'd appreciate any help. Thanks
jonalex

[patrish]

Is this the family you are referring to in 1891 RG12/148/97.55 James Ellis  and Ellen plus children  if not can you please post the correct reference .

If not we need to know childrens names d.o.b and where born to trace back.

[jonalex]

Thanks for quick reply, but no, that's not the family.
Ellen died in Portsmouth in 1885.

Details I have are

Son's Birth Cert: Frederick John Ellis b.21.12.1873 at 6 East Hill Passage, All Saints, Hastings, Sussex.- father James Henry Ellis, Hawker, and mother,Ellen Ellis formerly Warne(r)
 
Daughter's Birth Cert: Lily Ellis b.10.08.1879 at 41 West Street, St Clement, Hastings.- father James Henry Ellis, Pedlar and mother Ellen Ellis late Cook formerly Warner.

Death Cert of Ellen Ellis, died at 3, Camber Alley, Portsmouth, "wife of James Ellis, Street Hawker" aged 46years.
Census 1891 RG12/864 Folio 85 page 16
shows James Ellis (Widower)(51) Flower Seller and Frederick Ellis,son(17) at 4 Camber Alley.  Also in the same house is Hannah Marshall, (43) spinster.
Also 1891, RG12/872 there is a Lily Ellis aged 11 shown as a boarder at the Southsea Nursery in Portsmouth

I have a Marriage cert for 07.11.1872 which shows the wedding of James Ellis, Flower Seller (52) to Hannah Marshall (45) in Portsmouth. His father is named as James Henry Ellis, Sailor.

The 1901 census RG13/1001 23/38 shows James H Ellis (61) (Hawker-Flower Seller), his wife, Hannah (53) and his son Frederick J Ellis (27) (Coal Heaver) all living at 46 East Street, Portsmouth.
There is a Lily Ellis, (21) Domestic Housemaid, born Hastings Sussex shown on the 1901 census for Clifton, Bristol. (RG13/2368 103/4) - (Interestingly, her name follows that of a visitor to the house called Gertrude Warner who appears at that address in earlier census years as the Governess to the children of the household.)

Lily was my Grandmother.
Hope this helps rather than confuses!
jonalex

[lizdb]

Yep - it all helps except.....

Is the marriage od James and Hannah Marshall really 1872? cos that doesnt fit in with everything else! (James still married to Ellen then, and Hannah Marshall still a spinster in 1891

[patrish]

Had a quick scout around the 81 but cant seem to find them.

[lizdb]

Yep, same here, been hunting on 1881 for ages, including just first names, just surname, just place of birth... you name it 'Ive been trying it!

ALso looked for Ellen's birth (Warner), there are 4 in 1838-39, so I'm guessing one of those is her.

But as to her marriage to Cook - that is proving elusive too.

It's a mystery one, Jonalex

[lizdb]

James Henry Ellis is nice and consistant with his age in the censuses, making his birth 1839-1840

There is only one James Henry Ellis born in those years:

Oct/Nov/Dec 1840 Shoreditch area ref 11 391

Where does he give for his place of birth on the 2 censuses?

[patrish]

Place of birth on 91 and 1901 is Portsmouth.

[jonalex]

I have just sent a reply that has disappeared, so apologies if it reappears and duplicates the gist of this one!

Sorry about the date of James and Hannah's marriage - it should have read 1892 not 1872.

I too have been unable to identify James in any census before 1891.

The only "possible" lead I have (and I stress, "possible") is the appearance in the 1881 census (RG11/1037 68/52) of a James Elliss (note the double 's') aged 61 (thus born c1820) who is described as a "Retired Hawker".  He was born in Bishopstone near Hastings and is living with a wife called Matilda.
I have done checks on this James who's age could possibly allow him to be my James's father.

Born c1820, he appears to have married "Mary xxx" who was born c1800 +or- 5yrs.   Mary died in 1872 and James (Sr) then married a Matilda Cheal in Battle (nr. Hastings) in 1873.
I can trace James and Mary on the 1851 census (HO107/1637 120/32) where James is wrongly transcribed as 'Thomas', also 1861 - RG9/507 121/39 and 1871 - RG10/1039 33/23. Trouble is at no time do they have a son.

Of course, all this is a hypothetical connection at the moment, but I live in hope. Without the proof of a connection, tracing my James Henry and anything for Ellen Cook or Warner has become my brick wall..... but I live in hope!
Thanks everyone,
jonalex