Tombs family

[Anarchia]

I am seeking information on the following Tombs family:

James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle, based on census returns, worked as a bedstead maker and later manufacturer hiring many people. I can't identify him on the 1841 or 1851 censuses.

James had children by 3 women:

Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856
Ellen and James, both of whom died early (based on Free bmd entries and censuses)

Fanny Sutton (was his servant, called herself Tombs on the 1891 census, but it is unlikely that they married)
Percy b. abt. 1878, Birmingham
Sydney, b. abt 1882, Birmingham
James, b. abt 1885, Birmingham
Fanny and sons emigrated to New Zealand in abt 1892

Elizabeth Simpson (also James servant initially) m. James in 1893
Constance b. 1893, Birmingham
Harold b. 1895, Birmingham

I have been unable to find birth records for James, Percy, Sydney or James jnr - I have looked under Sutton and Tombs for an entry for the sons on Free bmd. Could they not have been registered at all?

Any information would be great, but I would be particularly interested in contacting any descendents of Constance and Harold in case they can tell us more about James and his family.

Thanks,
Ana

[Ecneps]

How about this one?

1851 HO107/2043 fol.91 p.7  Unicorn Inn, Great Malvern, Worcs
James Tombs servant  14  Tap Boy   Hanley, Worcs

(indexed on ancestry as aged 19 which may have put you off)
Barbara

[Anarchia]

Yes, that was my guess for 1851. Would Hanley Castle be written Hanley? If someone else seconds my guess, it seems more reliable!

My guess for 1841 is that he is listed as James Wagstaff in Worcestershire with a Tombs family. But, that seems a big guess.

Thanks,
Ana

[Ecneps]

There is a James Tombs aged 7, with family, in Castle Morton, Worcs, maybe a bit young, but ages never what they seem in census.  All these places are very close together, (have a look on genuki ) Castle Morton, Hanley Castle, Great Malvern
Will have another look tomorrow, past my bedtime now!
Barbara

[Anarchia]

Thanks for the help. It is nice to have someone else's brain working on this too! It has been an issue in my husband's family for years, and it made it awkward for my husband's brother to get permission to live and work in England (as he could, then, if his grandfather was British).

I don't think either of the Castlemorton James Tombs can be mine, because I can trace them forwards on the later censuses. The stone mason's son definitely isn't. But, if you have the patience for it, a second opinion would, be nice.

[JAP]

Just some thoughts.

...  James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle  ...
Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856

Given the date of the marriage, one would suspect that an earlier birthdate would be more likely - if 1841, James would have been only 15/16 when he married which does seem a bit young.  What age does the marriage certificate say?  Father's name and occupation?  Parental permission if he was a minor?  James's occupation and address? And any clues in the names of witnesses?

Have you found Percy in the 1881?  From FamilySearch, he isn't with James TOMBS & servant Fanny SUTTON in Edgbaston.  Is it certain that he was James's son ...

JAP
PS: There's the birth on FreeBMD of a Sidney Tom SUTTON, Kings Norton (which included most of Edgbaston, it seems), Jun qtr 1882.

[Anarchia]

Thanks for the tips. I just ordered James and Ellen's marriage certificate. It didn't occur to me that it would have the information I need on it. Fingers crossed that it has a father and decent birth information on it!

I agree that the earlier birthdate is more likely.

I am sure that Percy was also his child. Percy was my husband's grandfather and James continued to send them money and gifts after he married Elizabeth. He is on the 1891 census with his mother and brothers, but I do not have him on the 1881. I sort of suspect that he might be the Percy 'Smith' boarding/lodging with no one else of the same name in the house near to James and Fanny in 1881. But 'sort of suspect' doesn't count for much. I definitely can't find him as Sutton or Tombs in 1881.

I hadn't noticed the Sidney Tom Sutton entry. He was always Sydney, so I dodn't bother checking. I have asked a cousin to get in contact with one of his daughters to check his middle name - he did have one.

Thanks again,
Ana

[Ecneps]

Would Hanley Castle be written Hanley?

Possibly, have been right through the 3 enumeration districts for the Parish of Hanley Castle, and in district 2 is the Village of Hanley (3 households) followed by the Village of Hanley Castle (8 households) then back to the Village of Hanley (3 households plus a large school) etc... and people often just gave the parish, or the village or the nearest town down as their birthplace on censuses.

Barbara

[Ecneps]

There are only two Tombs families in the Parish of Hanley Castle in 1841:

HO107/1 fol.47 p.21 Coronation Lodge, Hanley Castle
Henry Tombs 30, Shoemaker
Ann       "       30
Charles  "        8
Henry     "        5
Mary       "        3
George   "   4 months
Thomas Allen  40 Horsekeeper
Thomas Tombs 15 J.Shoemaker
all born in county

HO/107/1205/1 fol.25 p.3  Blackman's End, Hanley Castle
John Tombs 25 Ag. Lab.
Sarah     "   20
James Purner 14 Ag. Lab  (another James to consider! Not found in 1851)
Ann Tombs  6
Mary    "      3
Benj. Hall   14 Ag. Lab
all born in county

Remember, adult ages in 1841 often rounded down to nearest 5 years

Look forward to seeing details from the marriage cert when you get it
Barbara