can someone verify this for me

[dundeelass]

can someone please verify that the mothers maiden name on this certificate is  GRAY

I got this from SP. When I put in the mothers maiden name as Gray - no results are found.
if I leave it blank - it produces this. I read it as GRAY !!!!!!
I have been searching for months for information on James Martin and Jean Gray. Thomas is the only sibling I can find.
i would be grateful if someone can look at this. If it is not Gray then this may explain why I cant find anything

[dundeelass]

 Re post above - sorry it doesnt seem to want to attach the file. have tried lots of times but says it  its taking too long - anyone have any suggestions what i can do
Thanks
Lorraine

[JAP]

Lorraine,

If the name on the certificate is GRAY, then I can think of at least two possible reasons why entering that as the maiden name gets no results - a) the name might have been mistranscribed in the index, or b) the maiden name might not have been entered into the SP index.

I note from another thread on these people, that someone kindly advised you that the only surviving records of marriages for Glamis (if that is where Thomas's parents were married) cover the dates from 1699-1715, and 1834-1854.  See:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ANS/Glamis/index.html
So if that is where his parents were married, you will not find a record of the marriage.

I also note that the relevant IGI batch (C112892; 1677-1819) of baptisms in Glamis lists only the names of fathers - not mothers.  There are a few other entries for MARTIN, father James MARTIN:
Agnes MARTINE, 16 May 1773
George MARTINE, 25 Mar 1778
Thomas MARTIN, 13 Mar 1790
Thomas MARTIN, 29 Mar 1790
Girsal MARTIN, 3 Sep 1791
John MARTIN, 7 Jun 1793

You would need to look at these OPR entries to see whether there are any clues to indicate whether there is more than one James MARTIN, or to explain the two Thomas MARTIN entries.

It is also necessary to bear in mind that, before the start of Statutory Registration in 1855, records can be very patchy and/or non-existent (i.e. the registers have not survived); and many parents did not have all, or even any, of their children baptized.
 
JAP

[dundeelass]

Hello Jap

Thank you so much for the reply

The Thomas Martin you have listed is infact my ggggrandfather. The dates listed for him are his birth and christening. Because the world seems to be full of James Martins, I am reliant on the mothers name (jean Gray) to make any connection to any other Martins.
My family line has a history of 9 - 15 children in each generation but in this case Thomas is the only one I can find. I will just have to keep searching through martins and see if  I can make a connection
I have seen the disc you are refering to on the IGI and got the same results. Sorry I am still new to this and still learning - does this mean that the ones listed are all connected to a particular James or just any James ??
Thank you so very much for taking the time to help me
Lorraine.

[JAP]

Hi Lorraine,

The two entries for Thomas MARTIN in Glamis in 1790 are both listed in the IGI as christenings, not as a birth and a christening - is that a transcription error?

The IGI batch lists all births/baptism entries in the parish register of the Parish Church of Glamis between 1677 and 1819 - these have been extracted by the LDS into an index.  The LDS transcribe into their index the name of the child, the date(s) of birth/baptism, and the names of the parents (or name of the parent if only one is listed).

So essentially that means that the entries could well be "just any James" i.e. there could be just one, or two, or several chaps named James MARTIN involved 
If you look at the actual parish register entry, there might be clues which would help to determine this (e.g.  occupations or residences might be stated) but often there's nothing more than the bare facts stated in the IGI.

In some ways you are lucky to have gone as far back as 1790 - often even that isn't possible.  So I fear you might have to accept that this might be the end of the road.  Just another note of warning - names of parents on death certificates are notoriously unreliable given that they depend on what the informant thinks the names were.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.  I hope that my pessimism is not justified.

JAP

[dundeelass]

Hi Jap

Thanks for your reply. Have double checked the entries for Thomas Martin and yes you are right - need to do a bit more research  - I may be barking up the wrong tree.
My train of though is - If Thomas was born in 1790 then more siblings would be around that time - given 10 years either side. I found his death certificate in 1855 onwards and assumed there would be more - but have drawn a complete blank using Jean Gray as the mother. I need to backtrack a bit and look at other Thomas Martins and see if I can find a connection.
Again Thank you for your help - it is so easy to have a one track mind in this game and "pessimism" as you call it keeps you in line  Its good that other people can give you another angle as it can become very frustrating at times.
Good luck with your search
Regards
Lorraine

[JAP]

Hi Lorraine,

Sorry to ask this - but I presume you are sure that Thomas was born in Glamis i.e. is this the birthplace given in the 1851 and 1861 censuses; also that his age (on 1851, 1861 and the 1866 death cert) is right for the 1790 Thomas.

And have you checked the area where he was living when he died for monumental inscriptions, obituaries, newspaper notices of his death ... just in case any exist and in case they give a clue.

Regards,
JAP
PS:I've looked at your earlier thread at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,207485
Joe kindly suggested 80yo farmer James MARTIN, Jean 60 in Inverkeilor as possibles for Thomas's parents; other members of the household were David MARTIN 35, Elizabeth MARTIN 25, Ann MARTIN 20 and Elizabeth CAITHNESS 4.
I've just been looking at that household in Angus in the 1841 on FreeCEN and I think they probably can be discounted as parents of the 1790 Glamis Thomas given that all the MARTINs in the household are listed as born Outside the County (i.e. elsewhere in Scotland).  Also Jean (even allowing for rounded-down age) is slightly too young (if the age is correct).
In the IGI I found a family in St Cyrus, Kincardine (adjacent to Angus) which might well be this family:
James MARTIN married Jane LAW 1808
They had (baptisms, all St Cyrus):
David 1809
Mary 1811
Anne 1812
Elizabeth 1814
Hannah 1818
Elizabeth CAITHNESS, age 4, in the household is listed as born Angus and I suspected she might be a grandchild.
I thought I had her when I found that a Mary MARTIN married a George CAITHNESS in 1830 (entries in Arbroath and St Vigeans) and they had several children in Angus including an Elizabeth in 1837.  Unfortunately, I found this family in Dundee in 1841 (under CATHNESS) and not only is Mary listed as born in Angus, but they have a 4yo Elizabeth with them    

[dundeelass]

Hi Jap
The 1841 census in Kirkden, Forfar for Thomas Martin states he was born in the county.
He married Anne Wighton May 1813 in Newtyle. - I have the banns for this.
He died December 1866 aged 76 This would make the birth 1790. His death certificate states his marriage to Anne and signed by his daughter so I know I am on the right track with all that. This is where his parents are listed as being James Martin and Jean Gray
Their 10 siblings are all listed as being born in Kirkden, Newtyle, and Inverarity and Methy.
I need to do a bit more searching into his birth -I really dont have anything solid to verify i have the right Thomas Martin born Glamis 1790. I am in Australia which makes the search more difficult where it comes to newspapers etc.
The family you mentioned may well be his brothers marriage -  ( all down the generations the first 3 sons are all called Thomas James and Charles) There are also Elizabeths, Janes ,Marys ,Annes, but no Hannah - which could well come from the inlaw marriage side. Elizabeth Caithness may have just being staying with them the night of the census andnot a member of the family.
I will have a delve into this and see what I come up with
I have to go away for a week but when I come back I will resume the search
Many thanks again for giving me more angles.
kind Regards
Lorraine.

[JAP]

Lorraine,

It seems that your first step would be to search on ScotlandsPeople for the census entries for Thomas in 1851 and 1861 in order to see what his age is given as and especially what is stated as his birthplace.

And remember - there is, unfortunately, quite a possibility that no record of either his birth or the marriage of his parents will ever be able to be found.

JAP
PS: I see from the IGI that there are marriage entries (presumably banns) from both Newtyle and Tealing - perhaps it might be worth downloading the Tealing OPR entry from ScotlandsPeople.
From the IGI, I seem to find some other birthplaces for children of Thomas MARTIN and Ann WIGHTON/WEIGHTON
Thomas 1814 Newtyle
Charles 1815 Inverarity & Methyl
John 1817 ditto
James 1819 ditto
Jane 1820 Monikie
Ann 1822 Auchterhouse
George Winehouse and William Philp 1824 ditto
Mary 1826 Tealing
Margaret 1830 Kirkden
David 1835 Kirkden
Matilda 1838 Kirkden