Rope and Sailmakers of Devonport Dockyard

[J.J.]

bornarnold (gord) welcome to rootschat!
Although he may not have lived at the dockyards ( there was room) he would have most certainly worked there...from this little piece which gives a great feel for the area in the mid-century
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Plymouth/Plymouth1850.html#DevonportDockyard
excerpt:  "Dock Yard now comprises 70 ½ acres, and gives employment to from 1400 to 1600 men, as shipwrights, caulkers, joiners, smiths, sawyers, rope-makers, painters, riggers, sail-makers, labourers, &c., besides a large number of apprentices. In time of war, its establishment would be augmented to about 4000"

Cire ( Eric) I wonder if this group might help you? http://www.swmaritime.org.uk/article.php?articleid=275&atype=m
They have a forum as well... http://www.swmaritime.org.uk/forums/index.php

Mentions the ropemaster's house & ropeyard "buildings" "Ropery complex" but not if they were all for work...
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-476469-dockyard-wall-extending-from-east-of-rop
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/england/devon/plymouth
The ropery spinning house was destroyed in 1941... if you are missing parish information, several churches & chapels were also hit during the war, so there may not be files available... http://books.google.ca/books?id=jeOMfpYMOtYC&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329

[Rena]

Here's another web page with several online old maps of Plymouth.  There's also a watercolour of St. Andrews parish church and the buildings crowding round it which will give you an inkling of the area.  I couldn't spot either of the streets on any of the maps but could see there are three sheltered harbours/coves ideal for shipping.   One map which included "The Dockyard" earlier than 1841 showed even then that there were several buildings but unfortunately not named but probably housed a timber yard and factories making rope and sails and other ships' provisions, which would all be in demand during the era of sailing ships. 

http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/maps/mayflower.htm

[bornarnold]

In fact there were many sail lofts in and around Devonport and still are as all around plymouth there were ship repairers for small boats including a very  large fishing fleet at that time
 The dockyard in 1967 I believe employed 11,000 people at the time and at that time we made very few sails after the royal navy was modernised as we made mainly awnings and covers for guns  amongst many other things  mainly done by hand which took a long time to do ,for example to put a hole in the corner of an awning to put tight  we had a time limit of 20 minutes  as all hand made

The date you are talking about Sailmakers they were important and had plenty of work all over Plymouth as there were a lot of very small docks for different things each specialising for their boats ,The merchant navy was also important at that time not counting the emigrations to America and the local small boats I have never heard of the dockyard employing outside contractors as x navy men not wanting to sail anymore were pre destined to work in the dockyard but there was no problem to find work after an apprenticeship even for young pretendants newly emigrated  to Plymouth which was a booming town

[bornarnold]

The RN dockyard in 1967 was very long and  at the time and there was a bus service and a train service internal to get about I cannot remember all the gates to go in but there were at least 6 main gates between North yard, Maurice yard and South yard in the 1840s my great grandfather was a shipwright who moved from Barnstable (north Devon ) to work

[cire]

Hi
I was very interested to read all your comments, and surprised that the subject had attracted attention again. It seems a long time since I first put the enquiry up.
The info I have on John Andrew Spencer's working life is mainly from the censuses, and the silver box. My original enquiry was with the box and why it had been presented to him by the Rope and Sailmakers of Devonport Shipyard in May 1857.
1841  aged 28  a sailmaker        Chapel Street Minster  Sheppy  Kent     not born in Kent
  (presumably working in the dockyard at Chatham)
1851   aged 37  sailmaker           15 Notte St. Plymouth                            born Plymouth
1861   aged 47  sailmaker journeyman    St Andrews Factory  Catherine St. Plymouth
        (his son William aged 20 was an apprentice sailmaker)
1871   aged 57  retired sailmaker RDY Devonport     15 Notte St. Plymouth  (as in 1851)
1881  aged 67    former sailmaker   19 Prospect St. Plymouth
1891   aged 77  retired sailmaker     25 Baring St   Plymouth
I presume that his early career was with the navy, perhaps the "journeyman" in 1861 indicates that he was by then working on his own account. Perhaps the box was presented when he left the naval dockyard and set up on his own.

Eric

[J.J.]

ah...you hadn't actually specified that in your query...perhaps someone may find this now who has more knowledge of the gift, if it was a standard thing to award gifts...  "journeyman" actually means he is finished his apprenticeship, so he as still likely working for the dockyard.  It might have been a reward for completion of apprenticeship...but one would think this would have been well documented if a standard practice.  I wonder if he worked on something that might warrant extra praise? Does the box actually have the statement " presented by..." engraved into it?
~~~~~~~~~
I found this meaning for Journeyman
1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.
(Middle English journeiman / journei, a day's work)

The best at a craft were the "masters" ( If yours was a master he likely would have specified on census) However he does not call himself an apprentice sailmaker on the census so may have been a journeyman by 1851 as well...

[J.J.]

When do you think he branched out on his own?...He states he is retired from the Royal Dock Yard. ( from RDY acronym?)

Here is the other query re: the silver box So no point trying to solve it on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,221553.0.html

[bornarnold]

Yes I think your right as from what I gather journeymen ALSO went sailing on the ship to repair any faults while on trial runs testing the equipments so  small faults were rectified  on board for the clients even though there was most probably a permanent sailmaker on board ,
 It was the custom then to give a silver (trophy) for men who had done their time in the dockyard   and as sailmaking paid very well and there was lots of work if you were good at it ,an awful lot started their own business outside and as I imagine he left after a promotion ,thus even though he left earlier , I imagine he may have been a chief of some sort (thus the silver BOX) which he may have kept his needles in ,and ,classified as a (master sailmaker) AND PROBABLY HAD HIS OWN BUSINESS OUTSIDE ALREADY ESTABLISHED years before ,, as many did even while I worked there
As for the rope factory I believe the first place burnt down in Southyard and the other was bombed out in the Plymouth blitz WWII  in Northyard as was the sail loft , myself  I only worked in Mauriceyard
The dry docks were built by the POW of the Napoleon wars  from granite I believe most of the dockyard were built with them and its quite impressive what they done  (poor guys) worth seeing, very much so on (NAVY DAYS) a very good show for all but bring earplugs for small children as cannons make a good noise ,, lol The RAF,Marines, Commandos ?Wrens make it a great day where you can also go in the war boats and submarines to visit  while you can see where your ancestors worked

[bornarnold]

RDY was Royal Dock Yard is my guess
as now its or was Royal Navy Dockyard( RN Dockyard)