Census 1841..........Census 1851

[eveder]

I have info. on 1841 census for Jockeys Field St Andrews HOLBORN. ?-------? SMITH 50 Laundress
                Frances SMITH 15     "             
                George  SMITH  25 Coachdriver?
 Please could you by looking at the 1851 Census, perhaps determine the birth place of the 50 year old Laundress. By 1851 Frances turns up at 7 Sandwich Street St Pancras daughter of John SMITH. I have more questions on this matter yet......but this willdo for now. Grateful for any help Eveder.   

[heywood]

well- hope this helps! there are at least 3 Ann Smiths (in 1841 she is Ann)

1851 HO107; Piece: 1514; Folio: 375; Page: 65

sorry- can't decipher address other than F--- or H--- Lane Court St Andrews Holborn

Ann Smith head married 57 yrs laundress b Reading Berks
Rachal Huchinson lodger 30 yrs botanist b Ireland
James Clerk lodger 38 yrs tailor b Hasleydown Southwark

will check other two to see if they are laundresses - otherwise
good luck
heywood

[eveder]

that Ann Smith from Reading not expected so must be one of other two. It's a help, though thanks. Eveder. 

[heywood]

what were you expecting?

1851 HO107; Piece: 1527; Folio: 12; Page: 16
Ann Smith 62 yrs lodging house keeper b Buckinghamshire

1851 HO107; Piece: 1527; Folio: 10; Page: 12
Ann Smith 57 yrs married to James Smith - visitors

these are the St Andrew Holborn ones - there are over 100 altogether around that age in the larger area.

[eveder]

Hello, Heywood
                         thanks for the interest you are taking. Bear with me as I try explain this conundrum. I was,perhaps, expecting a birthplace in Herts. [Hemel Hempstead Aldbury, or Great Gaddesden] - of course since she was 50 in '41 she may have gone to the great Laundry in wherever it is.
                          That said this is the reason for the search!!!!!
 I have traced my tree to :- the census of 1841 7 Sandwich Street St Pancras. Job SMITH [aka John] 45 and wife Elizabeth 42 there were children Elizabeth [Eagle] Smith 13 Mary V. Smith 11            John 9 and William 3. If you are able to look up these census records in 1851 you'll see that still living in Sandwich street
John SMITH head  marr. 56 Insp P.O. born H.Hempstead Herts.
Elizabeth [EAGLE] SMITH wife 51 born Great Leighs Essex then note this, 1st child is now Frances [Palmer] SMITH  Daur U 24 born St Andrews Holborn but [IGI] bapt. Old Church St Pancras.    as is Mary V SMITh Daur U 21 and John SMITH son U 19.
 William and James D. both born and Bapt Old Church St Pancras.
  It apears that the Elizabeth Daur. 13 of 1841 married a Robert Baines by 1851 but living in Sandwich St. Then Frances Palmer moved back into 7 Sandwich st as the eldest daughter.
 If by now you've given up and put on the TV I quite understand but this is What I Want to Know................ Why Bapt. the eldest daughter Frances Palmer and then call the 2nd daughter as named after her mother Elizabeth [Eagle] ?
Were Frances and Elizabeth really sisters?
There is yet more but twill do for now.
                   thanks for any suggestions................eveder         
   

[heywood]

Mmm - as if I would ever turn the tele on and miss this!! I multi-task (or try to) all the time - husband and daughter fed up of explaining what is happening on TV when I get particularly engrossed in something as gripping as this one!

Not sure then where Ann of 1841 fits in.
So I immediately decide to go to 1851 and begin - oh no!!! can't read pg 64 - it is so bad - 63 and 65 fine!!

Here's 1841 again --HO107/670/8
Ann Smith 50 yrs laundress  not born in county
Frances 15 yrs born in county
George 25 yrs coachman born in county

where is Mary V in 1841? There is a Mary Smith- servant amongst other Marys.
Family Search has Frances Palmer Smith baptised 3 yrs after her birth-parents Job and Elizabeth. In fact just seen that Elizabeth, Frances and Mary were baptised together! Getting nowhere fast here.

Perhaps Frances is Elizabeth's mother's name- first girl often called after mum's mum - is Eagle the maiden name?

I am really sorry- I have rambled and come up with nothing!!

best wishes- if there is anything else - let me know
Kath

PS have just found the marriage of Elizabeth Eagle and Job Smith 1826 Old Church St Pancras -

[MJP]

Hi eveder,

I'm not sure why you would think that they are not sisters?  Is it because they are so close in age?  Or because Frances is not at home in 1841 when she should be 14?

There are lots of reasons why this could be - she could be out working as a servant.  There are Frances Smiths of the right age living with other families in Kensington and St. James Clerkenwell, for example. 

I see no reason why she would be the Frances Smith living with Ann Smith the laundress in 1841.  Even if she was "adopted", she was baptised with the rest of the family back in 1830, so why then would you expect her to be living with her "real" family in 1841? 

And the second daughter being named after the mother is not a clue, I don't think.  The first daughter was often named after a grandmother, so that could be where the Palmer comes from. 

Does Frances get married?  Who does she name as her father on her marriage certificate?

Hope that is useful!  If you would like anything else looked up, just give us a shout! 

MJP

[eveder]

Hi Heywood&hello MJP
                                   Let me ramble on a bit backtracking now and then:- John[Job] born 1794 H/Hemp.Herts. married 1826 Elizabeth Eagle born Gt Leighs Essex 1801. Her mother was "Mary" Snow.
John[Job] father was (a) John Smith Married to [both of this parish] Elizabeth Howard at Gt Gaddesden in 1791.
Now keep calm and put down any mind dumbing beverages etc.
(b) John Smith born 1766 Gt Gadd. bapt. H/Hemp 1774 married a   Frances Palmer born 20th june 1758 at Aldbury Herts They marr. at Aldbury 5th March 1785. Herts Parish Records HALS are not easily found online for research [I'm 200 odd mile away]
  John [Job] moved to london and started family.
 The IGI says Job's Father was John and mother Elizabeth so why call eldest daughter Frances Palmer.
 You ask for the fathers name on Frances' marriage cert. not in early 1800s except IGI. The shift from Herts. to London means that 1851 is first date that makes sense.
 Ann Smith [laundry] birth place might have provoded a clue.......
you see I'm trying to trace my lineage and cannot be sure which route to take from Job back.
 It's just ocurred to me could the (b) John Smith who married frances Palmer in 1785 remarried Elizabeth Howard in 1791 but wait the marr. cert says he was a batchelor not widower.
I'll have to go or my brain will explode............... again..eveder

[heywood]

could there have been two John Smiths?  Frances Palmer sounds more plausible so perhaps he was a widower or a different person.