1891 Census for Deal & Walmer

[BettyofKent]

Thank you Alastair. Someone emailed me a copy of their marriage certificate &, even better, a copy of a photograph of them both.


Betty

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi Betty of Kent

Did you ever find the 1891 entries for Samuel and his children - I have found that for the oldest only.

I think Samuel's two BUSHELL wives were sisters - grandchildren of my G3 grandparents Thomas and Sarah SPAIN whose daughter Mary Jane married a James BUSHELL (my G2 grandparents).  James may or may not be connected to the sisters' father John Jones BUSHELL.

Ray of Glamorgan

MUDDLE, CASTLE, BUSHELL, SPAIN - Walmer and Deal, Kent

[BettyofKent]

Hello Ray, welcome to RootsChat

I never did find the 1891 Census for Samuel.

Yes, Mary Ann Dixon BUSHELL & Fanny Eliza BUSHELL were sisters.
Samuel had 7 children with Mary Ann & another 7 with Fanny Eliza.

For the parents of Mary Ann & Fanny Eliza I've got the following:
John Jones BUSHELL, born, I think, in 1820, Minster, Kent,Christened 16 Jul 1820 St. Lawrence, Ramsgate, Kent
Parents:
Henry Bushell
Elizabeth Jones

John Jones Bushell married Sarah Ann SPAIN 12th Oct 1841 in Deal, Kent.
Eleven known children.

Sarah Ann SPAIN, born 1822, Walmer Kent.
Parents Thomas SPAIN & Mary Ann SPAIN.
Possible parents for Mary Ann SPAIN
Father John SPAIN (a John Spain christened 10th July 1771, Newington next Hythe, St Nicholas  Father's first name(s) Richd  Mother's first name(s) Mary) no idea if this is the right John Spain.
Mother Elizabeth ?
Thomas SPAIN born about 1791, Canterbury, Kent. Nothing else known.

The SPAINs are difficult to unravel, they seem to be everywhere in Kent, my husband's got them in his tree, but no idea if it's the same lot.
Several people on RootsChat have also got them!


Betty

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi Betty

Thank you for the prompt reply and the welcome.

I have both sets of the 14 children and have identified the 3 of Eliza's who died before 1911 and, I believe, Mary's youngest, Walter Ernest died in 1890.  Of the remaining 10, I have only managed to find Herbert Samuel SKINNER (Mary's oldest) in 1891 (Eliza's youngest 2 [twins presumably] were not born then and the third youngest may not have been). 

In 1901, I have Herbert again and George Thomas (Mary's second) married to Maude Ellen WILKINS plus 5 children.

I have all of the 10 bar Edward John SKINNER (Mary's third) in 1911 with 4 of them married with children.

I know the Deal sections of the 1901 census were generally missing, unfortunately, but have no idea why so many cannot be found in 1891- however, this could be just one very poorly transcribed household.  I have spent several days trying various searching tricks to no avail.  The electoral register shows them to have been in Deal so this is very irritating.

Looking at the censuses for John Jones BUSHELL, I have him in 1851-1881 as birthplace: NK, Walmer, Thanet Marsden, Deal respectively.  I have all the currently published Kent Parish Register CDs but these do not include Deal baptisms after 1822 or any marriages.  Thus I have various ideas of where he was born but, as yet, have no marriage details to indicate his father.  Though the one you give sounds promising, I would like to be more sure.

Frustratingly, the marriage details for Thomas SPAIN and Mary Ann do not give ages, statuses or fathers (surrounding entries do).  Thus I feel again the need for more detail to be sure.  My questions are was she married before or was SPAIN her maiden name.  Looking along these lines, I found a Mary Ann Spain LADD (bap 21 Nov 1800 in Deal, parents Thomas and Margaret) and wonder if this could possibly be her!

Looking at the census details (age and b Canterbury) for Thomas, I think I may have the correct entry for his baptism: 23 Jul 1790 in St Paul, Canterbury - parents Thomas and Sarah SPAIN.

I actually have 12 children for John Jones BUSHELL and Sarah Ann.  The first six through the Walmer Parish Register, and all bar the oldest of these (d 1843) plus 5 more through the censuses.  I have picked up a 12th from the LDS site searching on baptisms (site has 11 of the 12) - the baptism details on this site match the 6 I have parish register information for.  In total I have:
William Thomas BUSHELL
Mary Ann Dixon B
Elizabeth Eldridge B
John Henry B
Ellen Maria B
George Charles B
Edward Thomas B
Fanny Eliza B
Thomas Henry B
James Samuel B
Frederick W B (not on the LDS site)
Sarah Ann B bap 11 Nov 1863 (LDS site only, no census info - may have her death in 1864)

It is curious that the latter 6 children do not appear in the Walmer Parish Register.

I think the BUSHELLs will be as hard as the SPAINs to unravel as my GG grandfather James is, like John Jones B, difficult to pin down, but I have heard suggestions that his parents came over form France and renamed themselves.  I was wondering (hoping) that tying John Jones B down may reveal James B or at least simplify the search.

Ray

[AJ100]

From the Walmer Parish Records:

Children of John Jones & Sarah Ann BUSHELL, Labourer of Walmer Road, (now The Strand), Walmer.
Baptised at St Mary's, Walmer:

27/7/1842  William Thomas BUSHELL
17/11/1844  Mary Ann Dixon BUSHELL
18/4/1847  Elizabeth Eldridge BUSHELL
11/2/1849  John Henry BUSHELL
  1/6/1851  Ellen Maria BUSHELL
  5/2/1854  George Charles BUSHELL
In January 1855 St Saviour's Church was opened on Walmer Road (The Strand). As The Bushells lived nearby it made sense to baptise their remaining children in St Saviour's.
From St Saviour's records:
30/12/1855  Edward Thomas BUSHELL
28/2/1858  Fanny Eliza BUSHELL
11/1/1860  Thomas Henry BUSHELL
23/4/1862  James Samuel BUSHELL
11/11/1863  Sarah Ann BUSHELL
No record of a Frederick W Bushell being baptised in Deal or Walmer. This either means the information is incorrect or he was baptised at another parish outside Deal - quite common then.
Hope this is of some small help - I know you have most of the information, but it backs up what you already have.

Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi AJ

Thank you for the extra details.  I suspected they had moved church, or even denomination, but did not realise there was a second Walmer church - yet to have its parish records published.

Frederick W was 5 years old in the 1871 census, where he is listed as 'son' and born Walmer.  Thus I think this is probably genuine - but of course the enumerator could have just assumed (or been tired) he was a son like the previous 3 entries.

Good to have Sarah Ann confirmed too.

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray

The only Frederick W I can find is Frederick William baptised 27/12/1857 to Frederick & Eliza Bushell at St Leonard's, Deal. He obviously wasn't 5 in 1871 but is the nearest I can get.
Could be the families were related and Frederick was at John & Sarah's house at the time of the Census so would have been included but they got the age wrong - should be 14 or 15.
Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi AJ

He is listed after three other 'son's aged 15, 10 and 8 so I suspect, if the relationship is right, then the age is correct.  Of course if this was, say, a nephew, then he would probably be listed at the end.  To meet the 1857 entry, that would be age and relationship wrong so I suspect this would be a red herring.  However, I can't find a suitable 1871 entry for this Frederick so it is a possibility.

Now back to the chase - the second oldest sister Elizabeth Eldridge BUSHELL's children.

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray,

Can't find Elizabeth's marriage - do you know where and to whom she was married?

AJ