CARVER Ramblings

[janan]

Hi all
Been doing a bit of census searching

In 1841 the only Carvers in Bedfordshire are those in Wrestlingworth

51 is much the same with a few now in Cockayne Hatley, one Houghton Regis, one Biggleswade.
Put in Bedfordshire born Carvers and none have moved out of county.

61 again much the same Wrestlingworth, Cockayne Hatley plus a few drifters.
All bedfordshire born still in county except one family in Clifton. Bristol

71 still the bulk are in Wrestlingworth/Cockayne Hatley but a few more drifters and for Bedfordshire born a little more spread across the country, including the first in Yorkshire
In Micklefield there is David Carver 28 Mar Lime Burner Beds Besvor (should Wrestlingworth, problem with strong Bedfordshire accent I would imagine)

81 much the same in Beds itself, but for Beds born the decamp to Yorks has occurred. David was presumably the scout.

None of this takes count of any mistranscriptions and ignores the Cambs born children of William(Young and George's brother) and Hannah, but gives an interesting picture nonetheless.
It would seem that although there are earlier Bedfordshire Carvers on the IGI by 41 all Beds Carvers are descendants of John and Elizabeth

Jan

[Nick Carver]

Not sure if I have posted this before, but here is a link to my 6th cousin Glenn's (unmaintained) home page http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/Glenn-W-Carver/index.html

He has traced the Norfolk Carvers back to the 17th Century and at that time it appears that there were two separate groupings: a bunch of skilled craftsmen in and around Norwich and the farming Carvers who in our case were in the area of the broads.

Glenn suspects the family of originating from the area near North Walsham, to the north and west of Norwich and it is quite plausible that with a drift south and east in our case, this is matched by a drift to the west in the case of the Beds Carvers.

Nice theory, now all we have to do is to prove it. If nothing else, the photographs on Glenn's site are well worth checking out.

[janan]

Good site Nick - think I have been there before, so guess it is posted somewhere else.

Another thought - looking on the IGI there are earlier Bedfordshire Carvers, mostly from the Wrestlingworth or Bedford area. Since by 1841 they are only in Wrestlingworth and as far as I can ascertain are all descendents of John and Elizabeth, where did the descendents of the other Carvers go - there does seem to be a lot of females but there are some males 

Jan

[janan]

Hi everyone
 
Just found this

 Apprentices
1744 Carver Sam Thos of Southill Beds to Edw Watts of Hitchin Whlw £12

Now doesn't that fit nicely with the Samuel Carver (wheelwright) marriage to Mary Pryor in Hitchin in 1759
 
And Southill is only 6miles from  Wrestlingworth

I have also made contact with a lady with a Thomas Carver born c 1690 who became a NC preacher in Southill, have let her know of the above and given her a link to here.

Jan

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Jan

I have the transcript of Southill Independent, later Baptist, Church book in which Thos Carver features (he was deacon) plus John Carver who was Pastor at Wellingborough Ind Church, although he was a Southill native (possibly son of Thomas). I also have the Southill PR transcript if you need anything checked.

But if they were anything like my Southill Baptist ancestors there's a black hole between 1700 and 1800. They went into the sausage machine in 1700, and were still in the village 100 years later, but I have only a vague idea of what happened between times. No baptisms at all.

Is it a record for a thread that has been running for over 2 years, 5 pages, read nearly 1300 times, to be moved to a different board? (Just kidding Rick, it's character has changed from it's original look up request!!!)

Regards

David

[janan]

Hi David
Thanks for the offer
If you can see a Samuel Thomas Carver born c1730 that would be great

The John you mention is almost certainly son of Thomas but did Thomas also have a Samuel? The lady I mentioned  above thinks he might.

Re moving of thread - I really ought to have asked for it to be moved a year or more ago Thanks Rick

Jan

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Jan

From the Baptist Church book

1719 December the 3d at our church meeting we received Thomas Carver of Southill
1737 Oct 28. Conveyance of the Meeting House from the old trustees to the new trustees, one of whom was Thomas Carver labourer of Southill. In a further conveyance on 20 Nov 1765 he was not listed among the surviving trustees, so it was presumably him who was buried in 1762.
1741 April the 30 Received Mary Carver wife to Brother Carver of Southill
1756 June 17 Received John Carver of Southill  Warrin
1757 June the 16 At our church meeting Brother Thomas Carver was ordained Deacon* see end
1762 25 Nov .....Brother John Carver** called to the office of Deacon; and
1763 20 Jan, John Carver accepted the call of the church and was admitted to the office of a Deacon.
1764 25 Oct the church called brother John Carver to preach before them having for some time exercised his gift in private in his own house and unanimously called him to a public preaching the word where providence should call him.

...after Mr Field's Settlement (he was Pastor 1763-74) Mr John Carver, a native of Southill, and who had been chosen Deacon before, was called to the work of the ministry of this church. He was a worthy man, and a good preacher. He was for many years Pastor of the Old Independent Church. at Wellingborough at which place he died.  (Can't tell when this was written)

So that I think establishes that they were a very serious baptist family, which explains why, as I'm sure you've seen on the IGI, pre 1812 there's not a single Carver baptism in Southill parish register.

The marriages in the PR transcript are as follows:

11 Feb 1655/6 William Carver & Margaret Usher by Justice Whitbread
20 May 1754 John Carver & Ann Dunton both of Southill (I have Southill Duntons in my tree. Big baptists as well - a nightmare to trace!)
26 Dec 1765 Thomas widower m Mary Vintiner widow , both of Southill
27 Nov 1780 Joseph Negus of Bedford St Peter m Mary Carver of Southill
Banns were called 16 Dec 1781 for Susan with Robert Tarry of St Mary Bedford (despite the member submissions on the IGI these were banns only with no trace of a subsequent marriage)

Burials
2 Aug 1728 Rebecca, infant, dau of Thomas
9 Nov 1750 A child of Thomas Carvers
7 Dec 1758 Mary wife of Thomas
5 Sept 1760 Susan wife of Thomas
27 Mar 1762 Thomas "D" (=Dissenter?)
30 Mar 1765 James, infant, son of John & Ann
14 Nov 1765 Elizabeth, infant, dau of John & Ann "D"
20 Apr 1794 Thomas labourer
5 Apr 1811 Mary

If Samuel was from Southill and was born c 1730 in all likelihood he was the son of Thomas. Proving it is a different ball game.

I'm afraid it was as I suspected it might be - marriages/burials but no baptisms. Are you good at 3D jigsaw puzzles with some of the pieces missing? (in fact it looks fairly straightforward. Pity there's no reference to Samuel, but your apprenticeship record links him pretty firmly with Southill).

A Thomas Carver m Susan Turner 4 Dec 1746 at Lower Gravenhurst (about 6 miles across the fields from Southill)

Good luck

David


 
PS What about the Samuel Carver marriage in St Ippolyts, a mile south of Hitchin, in 1754?

* Someone on the net has this Thomas as born 1733 (which I think judging by the 1746 marriage above is too late). I think it was Thomas the elder who was the Deacon. There's no sign that Thomas the younger was ever a church member, although he may well have been part of the congregation
**this fits with the burial of Thomas the elder, Deacon, earlier in the year

[janan]

Hi David
Thank you for setting all that out.



The facts so far

George, William and Young sons of John and Elizabeth were all wheelwrights in Wrestlingworth the earliest mention being 1820 (from a bastardy recogniscance for Young)

John Carver age 68 was buried in Wrestlingworth in 1827

John Carver (occupation unknown) married Elizabeth Merrington in Cockayne Hatley in 1781

John Wilson wheelwright was buried in Wrestlingworth in 1779

4 children -  John, Thomas, Elizabeth and Mary - parents Samuel and Mary Carver were baptised on the same day in 1768 in Hitchin

Samuel Carver wheelwright married Mary Pryor in Hitchin in 1759

Samuel Thomas Carver of Southill is apprenticed to Edward Watts wheelwright of Hitchin in 1744





Possibilities

Samuel Thomas Carver was son of Thomas Carver of Southill

Samuel Thomas Carver of Southill apprentice wheelwright in Hitchin is same person as Samuel Carver wheelwright who married Mary Pryor in Hitchin

The children baptised in Hitchin are those of the above couple

The John Carver son of Samuel and Mary Carver is a late baptism for John born circa 1759 who married Elizabeth Merrington

John was a wheelwright like his father and sons

When John Wilson died in 1779 the Wrestlingworth wheelwright shop was taken over by Samuel Thomas Carver and/or John Carver


It does feel that things are coming together but as you say proving things is another matter - if only there was a will somewhere 

Jan

[bedfordshire boy]

Hi Jan

The Samuel part of it looks right.

The weakness as I see it is that you have nothing to connect John who married Elizabeth in Cockayne Hatley, with John son of Samuel. What was the marriage entry? Did it give his parish of residence? Without some sort of linkage it's pure speculation.

Samuel was a wheelwright; John's children were wheelwrights. But was John ever described as such in the baptisms of his children.? And whilst I'm not a great believer in naming patterns, John didn't name any of his children Samuel. *

Have you checked burials in Hitchin to see if John died young/was buried there?

There's no Samuel Carver buried in Beds

Have you ruled out John Carver baptised in 1758 in Dunton, 2 miles from Wrestlingworth? To me, on the face of it, he looks a much more suitable candidate. His age at death is spot on, and other than a burial of a JOhn Carver in Dunton in 1772, who may well have been his father, I can't see what became of him if he didn't marry Elizabeth Merrington. (Just thinking out loud!!!)

I remain unconvinced about the Hitchin John!

Regards

David

* There's a John, infant,  buried in Wrestlingworth on 6 Feb 1782, who may have been the first child of John & Elizabeth - named after John's father??