Back to Ireland to give birth?

[Florida June]

In England I am not able to find the birth records for the 2 children of Mary MURPHY (m. Karl ENGMAN), nor am I able to find her in 1861 British census. How likely (esp.since her husband was a sailor often at sea), that she would have returned to Ireland to give birth...and maybe I should be looking there instead of England??


 I am unable to find any record of :
      1) 1858/59 marriage
      2) birth 1st child: 14 Aug 1859, Anna Theresa Engman
      3) birth 2nd child  1861,  Sarah Louisa Engman
 
I have found :
        1) 1861 census: the father Karl Engman, as sailor aboard
             ship Breganza, reg. Liverpool
            but NOT find mother w/ 2 children in census
         2) death certif. of her 2nd child who died @ 2yrs (13 Jun
            1863) at 4 Trent St, Kirkdale, West Derby,Lancaster
         3) passenger list: Dec 1863,(to USA)
 

[Vabre]

Hi June,

Are you sure Karl and Mary were married?
I have found a Carl Ngman single Chief Mate age looks like 43 on the "Helmi" in the 1871 census born in Jacobstadt -  Finland.
and also there is a Mats Engman single 24 second mate Briestadt -  Finland.
Not sure if there is a connection to your Engman but thought it worthwhile mentioning.

Hope this is of some help,

Pam....Sydney

[Florida June]

Tempting info....but 1863 she gives birth to 3rd child while crossing ocean to USA, next 2 born New Jersey..and by 1870 whole family settled in Milwaukee, Wisconsin......
However he had a brother (name unknown) who was also a sailor..went to your Australia. so I will save every Engman  sailor I find.   Thank you....June

[Vabre]

June,

In the N.S.W. B.D.Ms there is a death for a John. F. Engman died 1876 aged 57 years
unfortunately there is not an occupation listed.
On the N.S.W. archives there is a naturalisation for a Herman Engman from Sweden in 1898.
In the Victorian B.D.M there is a death for a Engman, this site is pay to view.
That is all the Engmans I could find.

Pam

[aghadowey]

Florida- you said that you found death certificate for 2nd child (born c1861) but what about the first child? If you find the 1st child in later census records there should be a country of birth listed. Also, what about U.S. census records for Mary Murphy/Engman- some number of years married/age at marriage, number of children & number of children living.

[Florida June]

Pam..
Thank you for this info; I am now interested in pursuing Herman Engman, as the 1900 Milw.City Directory shows a Herman Engman at their address..a name we never saw before or later and assumed it was some entry error....Also, Engman is a Swedish name, many Swedes lived on west coast of Finland.....JUne

[Florida June]

aghadowey,
Yes, the census states 1st child born England, but not being able to find any documentation, I am trying to think of alternatives. I have a relative who went back to the old country to visit w/ here baby; this baby died over there but she gave birth to another while over there and just used the name and birth records of the 1st baby for the 2nd!!..so I am thinking maybe there is some reason they just said England, and being only 4 yrs when coming to USA, how would she remember?
I have a copy of Mary Murphy/Engman's will (signed w/ X), which is the 1st place we saw reference to Sarah who died at 2 years in Liverpool. Since her 1st 4 children were born @2 yr increments, we assumed marriage occurred just before birth of 1st child...but I will go back and check the 1900 census..thanks.........June

[aghadowey]

Don't rule out Ireland just yet. Birthplaces have been wrong in the census before.
My grandmother was alive when I was pregnant with my first child and she wanted me to have the baby there so that she could see her. Unfortunately my daughter was the 1st great-grandchild that she didn't get to see and she died the following year. Two years later my 2nd daughter was born, the 1st great-grandchild that she didn't know about.

[aengma]

Hi,

this post made my heart beat a little bit faster and I just had to register here. I've heard a story from my grandfather that my great great grandfather (Oscar or Oskar Engman) was an Irish sailor, who sailed to Sweden, found a wife and sailed to Finland. At the end of this story there's me and some others. My grandfather is born in 1930's so that would mean his grandfather would have born aproximately between 1850 and 1870.

I would really like to know if this story of yours has something to do with me and my family also. I would like to hear from you Florida June.

Best regards
Engman from Finland