Is this the same family? Opinions please!

[Biker]

Firstly apologies for the long post.

This is the result of some research and I'm wondering (obviously without giving all the background info I have - the birth certs are almost impossible to come by so will be doing further research to verify this) if this is the same family through the years.  I am particularly interested in James who appears in the in 1861 as the son 8 years.  Is this a certainty or am I going crazy?

I'm pretty new at doing this so what is your expert opinion ??

1861 1 Warwick Place, St Luke, London.
James Webb 28 Head General Dealer Born St Luke, Middx
Jane Webb 28 Wife General Dealer Born St Luke, Middx
James Son 8
Maryann Dau 6

1871 2a Warwick Place, St. Luke, Middx.
Timothy Lyons Head 34 General Dealer Born St Luke, Middx
Jane Wife 38 Born St Lukes, Middx
James Webb Son 17 Potman born St Luke, Middx.

1881 17 Pear Tree Street, St. Luke
James H Webb (H transcript error?) Head 28, Greengrocer, Born London City, London
Elizabeth Webb Wife 27 Greengrocer, Born London City, London
James W Son 5 Scholar, Born London City, London
William Son 3 Scholar, Born London City, London
Henry G Son 1, Born London City, London

1891 8 Three Kings Court, St. Luke
James W Webb Head 39 Costermonger, Born St Luke, Old Street, Mddx.
Elizabeth Wife 37 Costermonger, Born    ditto
James W son 15 Greengrocers Assistant, ditto
William Son 13 Scholar ditto
Henry Son 11 Scholar ditto
Elizabeth Dau 9 ditto
Rosie Dau 7 ditto
Sarah Dau 4 ditto
Luke Son 1 ditto

I have the 1901 census too which has the same family in Bethnal Green.

I'm wondering if these two separate families, one in 61/71 and the other 81 onwards? Or is it more fragmented than even that?  Also who is Timothy Lyons?

Anyway, ideas and opinions welcome.

Thanks
Jonathan

[tonia]

I would think this is likely the same the same people.

I would assume that James sr died between 61/71.

You could prove this by looking for death entries on freebmd for James Webb between 61 and 71, or the marriage of Timothy Lyons to Jane (you may strike lucky and find she married under her widow surname not maiden- I've come across that before- or if you know her maiden name it's easier for you to look)

Good luck,
Tonia

[JillJ]

I would go along with all Tonia has said on this one.

Jill

[Carmela]

I agree with Tonia about the first two records. As to your question about whether this is all the same family:
obviously, the 1881 and 1891 records are the family of young James, now grown up with a wife and growing family of his own. Mother and step-father must be somewhere else, if they are still alive. Hope this answers all your questions.
 
Good luck in your future quests,
Carmela

[Hackstaple]

The Index shows her remarriage as to Timothy Lines [not Lyons] - one can see this is an easy error for a cenusus taker to make. I think you can find good information from her second marriage certificate:

  WEBB, Jane
Record Type:    Marriages
Quarter:    September
Year:    1869
District:    Shoreditch 
County:    London Middlesex
Volume:    1c
Page:    217

[Biker]

Thanks for opinions and feedback everyone.
Hackstaple that could be just the breakthrough I've been looking for, many thanks!

Can anyone help me out with the marriage of James Webb and Jane, I guess between 1850-1853 ish ?? Possibly St. Luke/St Pancras ?

Thanks again.

Jonthan

[Hackstaple]

I think it would be guesswork as there quite a few marriages for people called  James Webb. When you acquire the marriage certificate for the widow Jane Webb it is likely to say she is a widow and give her former name. Then, as the Americans say, you will have  a handle on her and so a chance of going back a further generation..

[Timbottawa]

For me, the '61 and '71 records are for a single family (except for the death of the husband and re-marriage of the wife, obviously).  The '81 and '91 families are also for a single family. 

I'm not convinced, though, that the James H or James W Webb in 81/91 is the same as the young James in 61/71.  I would order the young James' birth certificate to see if he had a middle name beginning with H or W that his father and step-father didn't bother recording in '61 and '71.

Hackstaple's 1869 marriage is quite convincing as the wife's second marriage, though I don't quite see how an enumerator could mistake "Lines" for "Lyons".  Mr Lines/Lyons must have had really bad hand-writing for such a mistake, in which case one would expect multiple errors in other parts of the transcription.

Cheers

Tim

[Hackstaple]

Censuses in 1851, 1871 etc etc were not as they are today when it is assumed [incorrectly] that the head of the household can read and write and so fill in the census form. The enumerator who came to the dwelling asked the questions and wrote down what he heard.  Timothy Lines, therefore, wrote nothing at all on the form. He may or may not have been asked how he spelled his name and he may or may not have known how to. Tim has his view and I have mine. I wonder which of us will be proven to be correct?