Author Topic: ROSE in Sussex  (Read 5297 times)

Offline terryc

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ROSE in Sussex
« on: Wednesday 17 January 07 13:08 GMT (UK) »
Looking for anyone who might have ROSE family in Sussex (+?) about 1800.

I have a Mary ROSE (1813-1900) who married a Thomas Peter ERREY and would like to find out further information on her family/ancestors.

Baker, Samuel: ???, Somerset,  England, before 1840.
Collins, James: Pedwell, Somerset, England,  c1787.
Hambly, William: ???, Cornwall, England, c. 1823.
Malcolm, Thomas: ??? Stirling, Scotland, before 1875.
Pitt, George: ???, Worcester, England, before 1856.
Wells, David: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850.
Wiley, Martha: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850

Offline Jane Masri

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 17 January 07 15:03 GMT (UK) »
Terry,
Are you looking for help in tracing Mary Rose further back?  Do you have her marriage & census information on the couple?

jane
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

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Offline terryc

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 18 January 07 00:29 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I am looking for help. I am trying to extend a stump on the Family Tree and only have a little information atm.

My post was to see if someone already had this person and save a bit of effort. I am always thankfull for this.

What I have is from an Errey book published in 1982.
Thomas Peter (Webb) ERREY (1815, Heathfield, Sussex, Egnland - 1894 Camperdown,Vic, Australia), married "9-6-1835 in the county of Sussex" Mary Rose (1813, ?,?, England? - 1900, Camperdown, vic, Australia).

There are some submitted IGI entries, but I can not find online any raw IGI entries that confirm the suppossed Heathfield marriage location, or birth place of Mary Rose.

Unfortunately (for me) the author of the book is currently on an extended travelling holiday and will not be back for a while (then there is the question of the 150th reunion of em/immigration).

The book mentions that the family was found in the 1841 census at Pigshood Farm, Heathfield, East Sussex, but they were unable to find them in the 1851 census.

So I am at the start of the hard work. Plans are;
1) to look through the Heathfield Parish registers and see if there is a ROSE  family structure.
2) Get a good map of East Sussex.
3) Probably search 1841 Sussex Census for the locations of other ROSE families.
4) Then Parish Registers for each location.

ATM, it is Mary Rose in Sussex(?) or Mary & Jane McLeod (not related) in Vic, Australia.

Thanks for your reply.
Baker, Samuel: ???, Somerset,  England, before 1840.
Collins, James: Pedwell, Somerset, England,  c1787.
Hambly, William: ???, Cornwall, England, c. 1823.
Malcolm, Thomas: ??? Stirling, Scotland, before 1875.
Pitt, George: ???, Worcester, England, before 1856.
Wells, David: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850.
Wiley, Martha: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850

Offline Jane Masri

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 18 January 07 08:02 GMT (UK) »
This confirms the marriage from the Sussex Marriage Index.

 Heathfield, East Sussex, 9 Jun 1835
 Mary ROSE
 Thomas Peter ERREY, botp (B)

1841 - HO107/1108/3/9/11 Heathfield
Elizabeth ERREY  60  Ind
THOMAS               25  Farm ?
MARY                    25
Benjamin              20  ag lab
Elizabeth                5
William                    2
Mary                        3m
All born Sussex.  It gives the appearance that Thomas & Mary are living with his widowed mother & a single brother.
On the same page a couple of households away at KILN House? are;
John ROSE  30  ag lab
Elizabeth     25
Mercy             5
Mary               3
Thomas           1
All born Sussex.  Possible brother of Mary Rose?

1851 - Church Farm Chalvington  HO107/1643/663/22

Thomas P? ERREY  35  Farm Baliff  b. Heathfield
Mary                      37                     b. Mayfield
Elizabeth               14                     b. Heathfield
William                   12                            ditto
Mercy                       7                            ditto
Thomas P?               3                            ditto
Ruth                         1                      b. Hailsham.
Chalvington is in the LEWES registration district.

There is a good map of the Sussex parishes at the Sussex Family History Group  http://www.sfhg.org.uk/newmap_of_parishes.html  I printed out all the sections & carefully glued them together.  Whilst you're on the site check-out the public members interests page as there might be someone there researching the Rose family.
Hope this has been of some help & let us know if we can help further,

jane
 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.


Offline terryc

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 18 January 07 13:32 GMT (UK) »
Thank You Jane.

1841 census is spot on.
1851 is their family.

Thank you for map link. book marked.
Especially since it help me understnad my problem {:-). I still have a bit to learn as do not know which are parishes and which are locations {:-(

About Rose family. I am dubious about making a connection. I would virtually have to build up the families for all ROSE families in East Sussex+. I am just not finding adequate Rose birth lists atm, but will perserve.

<Woop, woop, brain alert, go look at death certificate and hope someone listed parents there, that might solve it.> 
Baker, Samuel: ???, Somerset,  England, before 1840.
Collins, James: Pedwell, Somerset, England,  c1787.
Hambly, William: ???, Cornwall, England, c. 1823.
Malcolm, Thomas: ??? Stirling, Scotland, before 1875.
Pitt, George: ???, Worcester, England, before 1856.
Wells, David: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850.
Wiley, Martha: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850

Offline Jane Masri

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #5 on: Friday 19 January 07 08:26 GMT (UK) »
Terry, when did they go to Oz?
Mary states that she was born Mayfield Ssx on the 1851 census (nextdoor to Heathfield)  nothing of any note is on the IGI for her baptism  :(
If you can't find anymore information from her death certificate, you'll need to check the pr's for Mayfield.  I've checked online for these & can't find a source except I need to try the Sussex Look-up Exchange (it's not opening at the moment) someone might have the registers.  Failing that you could contact the SFHG to see if they can do a look-up in the Mayfield baptism's.

jane
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.

Offline terryc

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #6 on: Friday 19 January 07 09:40 GMT (UK) »
Terry, when did they go to Oz?
In 1957. It was thought that their (Peter & Benjamin) horse dealing business failed with the end of the Crimean War. Benjamin actually came out later.
Quote
Mary states that she was born Mayfield Ssx on the 1851 census (nextdoor to Heathfield)  nothing of any note is on the IGI for her baptism  :(
If you can't find anymore information from her death certificate, you'll need to check the pr's for Mayfield.  I've checked online for these & can't find a source except I need to try the Sussex Look-up Exchange (it's not opening at the moment) someone might have the registers.  Failing that you could contact the SFHG to see if they can do a look-up in the Mayfield baptism's.

Death certificate gave Fr Jno ROSE and Mr Unknown UNKNOWN.
Yes, I think it comes down to going through all the parish registers, which as you say are not all online or in the IGI.

ATM, I have a couple of other loose women to chase to bring my fathers tree up to 5 complete generations in time for his 75th birthday. So I'll do those first, then look at getting access to parish registers. Given that I seem to have Errey, Rose, Gurnett, Baker, Crouch and all coming from the close area, I am going to be spending a fair bit of time researching East Sussex.

Thank you for your assistance.
Baker, Samuel: ???, Somerset,  England, before 1840.
Collins, James: Pedwell, Somerset, England,  c1787.
Hambly, William: ???, Cornwall, England, c. 1823.
Malcolm, Thomas: ??? Stirling, Scotland, before 1875.
Pitt, George: ???, Worcester, England, before 1856.
Wells, David: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850.
Wiley, Martha: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850

Offline Jane Masri

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #7 on: Friday 19 January 07 15:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi Terry,
I know you want to chase your loose women  ;D (couldn't resist that) but you might like to put these findings on the back-burner for later concerning your ROSE family!

Death certificate gave Fr Jno ROSE and Mr Unknown UNKNOWN.
I take that to read, father John Rose & MRS. Unknown?
The only marriage on the SMI for the right time-frame is;

 Waldron, East Sussex,  7 Nov 1809:
 John ROSE
 Philadelphia EASTWOOD

Waldron being adjacent to Heathfield & Mayfield.
The IGI gives an extracted baptism for William ROSE s/o John & Philadelphia, born 20/9/1821, cr. 16/12/1821, Independent Nc, Heathfield Ssx.  So looking at NC records could be of value when looking for Mary Rose  ;)
Then going to the 1841 census. On the same page (therefore same ref. no.) as Thomas & Mary, just a few dwellings away;

Philadelphia Rose  60
Philadelphia Rose   25
William Rose  ag lab  15
All born Sussex.
Looks like Mary Errey nee Rose a married brother & her mother, sister & single brother are in the same vicinity.

The Access to Archives (A2A) site has a lot to offer under the name ERREY & when searching the name Rose.  http://www.a2a.org.uk/  This grabbed my attention!

PARISH OF HEATHFIELD   Catalogue Ref. PAR372  Creator(s):
Church of England, Heathfield All Saints Parish, East Sussex
Overseers of the Poor: settlement papers - ref. PAR372/32
 Removal orders to Heathfield

 FILE - Notice of chargeability, intention to remove pauper and grounds for removal - ref.  PAR372/32/3/146  - date: 5 Jul 1849
 [from Scope and Content] Philadelphia Rose, widow of John Rose

jane

 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.

Offline terryc

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Re: ROSE in Sussex
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 20 January 07 00:04 GMT (UK) »
Hi Terry,
I know you want to chase your loose women  ;D (couldn't resist that) but you might like to put these findings on the back-burner for later concerning your ROSE family!

A good joke hangs around {:-).
I actually said it to my mother when she telephoned yesterday to say that "shock" Dad had decided (against persistant practice) that he wanted a party for his 75th birthday. I'll wait and see if Dad is in a really good mood for his 75th and asks where they are.

Actually, Mary Rose is one of them and now  is looking like the easiest to find.
Quote
" Death certificate gave Fr Jno ROSE and Mr Unknown UNKNOWN."
I take that to read, father John Rose & MRS. Unknown?
Yes.
Quote
The only marriage on the SMI for the right time-frame is;
...............
 
Waldron being adjacent to Heathfield & Mayfield.

I lack the geographical knowledgecurrently to do this. That is why the interest in maps. Local.live looked interesting until it started insisting that Mayfield was in Kentucky. {:-(

I think I looked at a wider time range. given that I do no know where in the range of children Mary was, first, last, middle. Given good tucker(food) my ancestors popped out and raised anything up to 10-13 children per generation. Arrivals were from 18 months to 3 years.

I also looked at a wider area as Thomas Errey was described as a traveller in the Errey book, including going to London and I have Collins in middle somerset where dad married someone from east side and son from west side. Markets, Family connection?, religious interest (he built a chapel in Vic, Australia and was associated with Highfield Independent church [HIC]).

So there was Philadelphia, Elizabeth, Francis, An and Sarah. Only Francis appears in the grandchildren and the family definitely had a naming pattern (not that I full understand it yet).

OTOH John does not appear anywhere in the direct descendants, so that also causes strong doubt in my mind. If the death certificate informant did not know her mothers name, did he really know her fathers name. Forgot to ask Neil Errey (book author) this last night.

The lack of information in the IGI and the large number of "missing" (not yet transcribed* parish registers online (e.g HIC marriages and all of All Saints Heathfield) makes me think that I really need to go back and search parish registers.

Quote
The Access to Archives (A2A) site has a lot to offer under the name ERREY & when searching the name Rose.  http://www.a2a.org.uk/
Thanks. I've learnt a bit more jargon.

I am interested in all the comments and suggestions. My comments are just my expressing my thoughts. I am very cautious in adding people to the tree because as many people have found, it is so easy to graft on the wrong limb.

For example, someone recently sent me a whole Gurnett limb (Thomas Errey's mother was a Gurnett from Surrey) that goes way back. Well a couple of generations further than the Errey part. Even though it is all supported in the IGI  (must have been a consistently church going family) there is no proof it is the correct Gurnett line. I received a chart, and looked in the IGI, but until some sources come through, it will always be doubtful in my mind. It also has the problem that the male line names Bryan, Brian, George, John, John also do not appear in any of the descendants of this couple.

To illustrate why. I have a problem with a Mary Crouch in the  same locality. There are multiple Mary Crouchs all born around the period in the same location. It would be so easy just to pick one family and erroneously add them. Similarly, fathers names do not appear in descendants.

OTOH, I understand the early parts of the Errey book is based on a One Name detailed study of Errey carried out by Gordon Hope. It did a good job of listing all the Erreys they could find in 1970/80s.

This family history is really an on-going who dunnit with some very intriguing twists. I've been pottering with it for about 30 years, so I don't mind taking my time.

Thank you for your comments.



Baker, Samuel: ???, Somerset,  England, before 1840.
Collins, James: Pedwell, Somerset, England,  c1787.
Hambly, William: ???, Cornwall, England, c. 1823.
Malcolm, Thomas: ??? Stirling, Scotland, before 1875.
Pitt, George: ???, Worcester, England, before 1856.
Wells, David: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850.
Wiley, Martha: Whitehaven+, Cumberland, England, before 1850