1851/1861 Census Mochdre lookup please

[Lloydy]

I have just been having a nose at the FreeBMD and found the following births for the children:

Births September Quarter 1873
John Thomas McInnes
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page: 494

Births December Quarter 1877
Edmund Williams
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page 540

Both certificates would confirm Christina's previous names, if you haven't done so already.

Jan

[Lloydy]

I've found wife Christina in the 1871 census:

RG10/3751 Folio 124 Pag 47 - 15 Mersey Road, Tranmere, Birkenhead

Working for the Marshall family -

Christine McInnes Serv Unm 23 General Servant (+ Domestic) born India (British Subject)


This confirms that her son John was indeed illegitimate, and that she wasn't previously married


I wonder where John is hiding in 1871?

Jan

[Lloydy]

Just thought I'd throw this in too

Marriages December Quarter 1874
Christina McInnes, and on the same page, John Williams
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page: 775

Get that marriage certificate!!!!!

Jan

[Jack D]

Thanks Jan.  We had a good Christmas.  Hope you did too.

The main clue which started this research was my wife's (nee Williams) grandad's statement.  Family legend said that he declared himself to be a "Welsh Indian", but nobody knew why.  Well we know his dad, John Williams was born in Machtre/Mochtre/Mochdre.  His mother Christina, as we have discovered very recently, was born in Cannonore, India in 1847 into the 25th Regiment of Foot (The King's Own Borderers).  Her surname was McInnes.  Another contact at RootsChat has come up with the same ancestors and her father was a Thomas McInnes.  However, where I'm stuck is with the Williams family at Mochdre.  There appear to be so many that tracking down will probably be difficult.  The contact I made through this board has further information.  Just a matter of getting their scanner working again so they can e-mail it to me.   

I greatly appreciate your help and advice.


Best wishes

John

[Lloydy]

Hello John

What an interesting story!!!!  How I wish I had something like that in my family tree....mine are all Ag Labs or Weavers from Montgomeryshire

Anyway, back to yours.....have you got John and Christina's marriage certificate?  If you haven't, it would be worthwhile purchasing it to confirm John's father's name.  At least with a father's name it will be a little easier to narrow down the correct family in earlier census.

Best wishes

Jan


Added: I have just noticed in your original post that you say John's father was a Richard Williams!! How did I miss that? Can you confirm how you know it's Richard? Also, if you do have the marriage certificate what's John's age, and who were the witnesses?

[Jack D]

Hi again Jan,

My contact has marriage cert of John Williams and Christina McInnes.  His father is shown as Richard Williams.  However, she hasn't given his occupation and at the moment cannot send me a e-mail copy of the cert.  I have asked the relevant questions so fingers crossed I'll get those vital answers in a day or two!

Yes.  I've wondered where John was in 1871.  I had a free go at Ancestry.com a couple of weeks ago so I trawled the 1871 census but there are so many John Williams I just gave up. 

I'll be in touch when I get more information.

Thanks and best wishes


John

[Lloydy]

I've wondered where John was in 1871.  I had a free go at Ancestry.com a couple of weeks ago so I trawled the 1871 census but there are so many John Williams I just gave up.

I've just done the same thing......I started going through the images, but got nowhere

I shall wait patiently to hear from you again

Jan

[Jack D]

Hi Jan.

I just got a e-mail from my contact.  Basically, her husband and my wife are both descendants of John Williams. 

I don't know how she got this information but from John and Christina's marriage cert John's father is Richard Williams, labourer.  She has linked him with a family in 1861 census living at 23 Cool Quay, Tirymynach, Montgomeryshire.   

Richard Head Labourer
Harriet Wife
Abel son 1843
David son 1854
Edmund son 1840
John son 1851
Mary dau 1841.

In 1871 at 50 Bank House, Pools Quay, Montgomeryshire
Richard Head Labourer
Hariet Wife
David son
Elizabeth granddaughter.

Also in 1871 living at 49 Bank House, Pools Quay
Edmund Williams Head Labourer
Louisa wife
Edmund son.

In 1881 18 Swan Bank, Pool Quay
Richard Widower age 80 Labourer
Harriet dau 40 general servant
Mary Anne grandaughter 4

There is no mention of daughter Harriet on 1861 but age matches that of Mary on 1861.  Mmmm.  Maybe?

Coincidently on 1891 census John Williams has sons named Richard and Edmund.  Another clue?  My contact also says that there is a record of an Abel Williams living at Henry Street, Birkenhead, who could well be John's brother.

I believe it significant is that Pools Quay is on the Shropshire Union Canal which runs all the way to Ellesmere Port which is about 8 miles from Tranmere.

I have some time off work next week so I may pop down to Pool Quay to have a look around.

Cheers for now.

John

[Lloydy]

Hello again John

1861 census living at 23 Cool Quay, Tirymynach, Montgomeryshire.   

Richard Head Labourer
Harriet Wife
Abel son 1843
David son 1854
Edmund son 1840
John son 1851
Mary dau 1841.

I have had a look at the image and it shows MANAFON as John's birthplace, which rather confuses matters further doesn't it?

The village of Manafon (near Welshpool) is 14.5 miles from Mochdre

BUT, on checking the 1851 I found the family in Llanllugan (which is about 3 miles from Manafon):

HO107/2497 folio 43 page 10 - Upper Felling? Mill, Llanllugan, Montgomeryshire

Richard Williams Head Marr 38 Fuller born Montgomeryshire Llanwydllen
Harriet Williams Wife Marr 40 born Montgomeryshire Berriew
Richard Williams Son U 17 born Montgomeryshire Llanwllchairan
Harriet Williams Dau U 15 born Montgomeryshire Mochdre
Edmund Williams Son U 12 born Montgomeryshire Mochdre
Abel Williams Son U 8 born Montgomeryshire Manafon
Thomas Williams Son U 7 born Montgomeryshire Llanllugan
John Williams Son 6 months born Montgomeryshire Llanllugan

Interestingly, two of the children were born in Mochdre.


I can see daughter Harriet in 1901 still in Pool Quay with her daughter Mary A, and in the 1871 she's still in Pool Quay working as a Servant for Edward & Elizabeth Jones.  There's a couple of possibiilities for her in the 1861....both Servants.

Jan