George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS

[kentishmaid]

Hello Annie

Thank you for that suggestion - I have just emailed Geoffrey Sharman so will await his reply with interest!

Janet

[davierj]

Hi Janet,
Sorry not to have answered sooner but I don't appear to have had notification of posts on this thread.
Here's some more info on Peter Withers from the book I mentioned (Wiltshire Machine Breakers vol 2).

Peter Withers and his wife and 2 children - Sarah and Ann, were a drain on parish resources and were removed from the parish of Ramsbury to Ogbourne St George, their 'place of lawful settlement' by on order dated 9 Feb 1830.

At age 23 Peter Withers was 'charged with having committed a riot at Rockley'.   The warrant was dated 23 Nov 1830.   He was sentenced to death, later commuted to transportation for life.   10 Feb 1831 he was received on the prison hulk, York, at Portsmouth.

Personal details from his record in Australia (presumably) were as follows.   He was 5 feet 6 and a quarter inches tall, fair complexion, brown hair, no whiskers, brown eyebrows and grey eyes.   His occupation was shoemaker.   He had 2 brothers, Thomas a shoemaker at Topsham, Devon and William a buttonmaker at Ramsbury.   A sister Ann was married to James Dowling a shoemaker at Ramsbury.
 
Peter was baptized 8 Feb 1807 at Chilton Foliatt, Wiltshire, parents Thomas Withers and Ann Osmond, widow, who were married 14 Aug 1804 at Chilton Foliatt.
Peter's wives were
1.    Mary Ann Hobbs dau of William Hobbs and Ann Jeffries who were married at Ramsbury, 28 Apr 1805.
2.   Anne Wade.

Marriage to Anne Wade, 13 May 1836 Peter Withers, convict, bachelor and Anne Wade, spinster, banns, at Parish of St David's, Hobart, Van Diemen's Land.

In 1844 he wrote to Mary Ann and told her was remarried.   Mary Ann wrote to the Home Department in 1847 to enquire where her husband was.   There are other letters to family members.

Other info I found may be of interest in Chiltern Foliatt.......
Marriage 25 Oct 1801 William Osmond, of this parish, and Ann Garlick, widow, of this parish, banns, witnesses, Jos Harper and William Whiting.
Burial, 9 Mar 1796, John Garlick.
25 Dec 1802, burial of William Osmond, 45.
Found no Garlick marriage in Chilton Foliatt.

Hope this helps, I don't know if you had any of this or not

Merry Xmas, Dave

[kentishmaid]

Hi Dave

No I did not have all that information, and it is of enormous interest to me, so thank you very much.

It is interesting that Peter Withers and his wife and two children were referred to as a drain on the parish and were therefore removed - I wonder where were the 3 children Mary Ann had before her marriage as they weren't mentioned.  Perhaps they were living with their father George Gwynn.  It's all very intriguing!

I wonder how all the letters came to light, thank goodness they weren't destroyed.

Janet

[davierj]

It was quite common at that time for unemployed people in a strange parish to be moved back to where they had come from.   This, they probably thought, spread the load and ensured to some extent that people didn't move to a 'rich' or 'better' parish in the hope of bettering themselves at others' expense.   It was very unfortunate on those who through no fault of their own became paupers and 'on the parish'.

I was unable to find any information on George Gwynn in Ramsbury or Ogbourne St George.   Perhaps he was the very one I mentioned in my 1st reply at Aldbourne.   I'll check out Aldbourne in the future.

It's remarkable how much information on Peter Withers is available.   If you see the book I mentioned there are actual copies of the order to move from Ramsbury and his marriage in Hobart.   Together with transcriptions of his letters to his brothers and Mary Ann.

Cheers Dave

[davierj]

Hi Janet
More on George Gwynn of Aldbourne - there seemed to be a number of Gwynns in Aldbourne.

Baptisms
11 Jan 1801 George Gwynn son of George and Sarah (this one could be your George Gwynn)
13 Feb 1774 George Gwynn son of George and Susanna

Marriages
14 Oct 1795 George Gwynn and Sarah Alexander
19 Oct 1767 George Gwynn, mason, and Susanna Leach, sp of Lower Letcombe.

Also another George Gwynn bap 15 Jan 1775 son of Thomas and Mary

Merry Xmas, Dave

[kentishmaid]

Hello again Dave

Yes, judging by dates, the one born 1801 is the most likely candidate.

You haven't come across his occupation at all have you?  I'm still curious as to why they didn't marry.  One illegitimate child would not be surprising, but the fact that George and Mary Ann had a total of 4 children together over a period of
 many years, including one born after they were both married to different people, is puzzling.  I wonder if she was 'beneath' him classwise and that is why they never married. 

Anyway, I feel fairly confident that you have tracked down the right George, so many thanks.

Janet

[davierj]

Hi Janet

It was unfortunate that Aldbourne, as a rule, didn't appear to even put fathers' occupations on the baptism records.   Other parishes often did as a matter of course.   The only occupation was that of 'your' George's grandfather - mason.

I would hesitate to give a reason why they didn't marry.   As you say it may have been a snobby thing or even that there was ill feeling between the families.

Merry Xmas, Dave

[davierj]

Hi again, I thought I'd look to see if George Gwynn was around in 1851, but the only one in Wiltshire was his possible father.

1851 census, Aldbourne, 1866/f565/sched 039.   Address Woodsend
Thomas Giles, hd, m, 51, farmer of 15 acres, WIL Aldbourne
M. Giles, wi, m, 52, WIL Aldbourne
George Gwynn, fl, w, 77, parish relief-lab, WIL Aldbourne
Charlotte Small, gd, 10, scholar, HAM Southampton
Joseph Gwynn, sv, 16, ag lab, WIL Aldbourne

Coincidently nearby at Lodge Cottages were a number of unmarried lodgers (no pun intended  ) G. Withers, 29:  W.Withers, 16 and M. Withers, 8 all were born in Berkshire.   In the unhelpful Aldbourne way no first names were given.

Another little wrinkle.   Best of luck, Dave

[kentishmaid]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the info on George's possible father, every bit of info helps in piecing it all together.

How funny that the lodgers of Lodge cottage were a family of Withers.  Could just be coincidence of course, but you never know...

I need to get myself a decent map of Wiltshire as a lot of these place names are unknown to me.

Janet