Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands

[JenClark]

Hey Margaret,

I've had a little look at the images you e-mailed.

I 'think' that they read:

"Catherine Sutherland, previously Henderson, MS Sutherland"
"Donald McAngus, nephew"

What do you think Forfarian?

[JenClark]

I also note you missed typing the details about Margaret Sutherland's parents on her death:

Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54)
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Father: James Gunn (crofter & fisherman) (Deceased)
Mother: Jane Gunn M.S. Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donald McAngus, Nephew Boulglass, Latheronwheel

So it looks like you have quite a few Sutherland lines to chase 

[JenClark]

There appears to be a Donald McAngus in Latheronwheel/Latheron in the census returns

His mother Janet McAngus (MS Gunn) would appear to be the sister of Margaret Sutherland (MS Gunn)...what do you think?

1851 census - Baalinloan, Latheron, Caithness
Jane McAngus Head 40yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Son 14yrs b. Loth, Sutherland

1861 census - Boalno, Latheron, Caithness
Janet Gunn Head 50yrs Dressmaker b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Son 23yrs Shoemaker b. Kildonan, Sutherland

1871 census - Knockinnan, Latheronwheel, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 33yrs Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland
Margaret McAngus Wife 34yrs b. Dunbeath, Caithness
John McAngus Son 4yrs b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Alexander McAngus Son 3yrs b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Janet McAngus Dau 3mths b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Janet McAngus Mother 63yrs Nurse b. Latheronwheel, Caithness

1881 census - Achingoul, Latheronwheel Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 43yrs Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland (speaks Gaelic)
Margaret McAngus Wife 44yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Alexander McAngus Son 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet McAngus Dau 10yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
William McAngus Son 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
James McAngus Son 5yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Ann McAngus Dau 3yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret McAngus Dau 1yr b. Latheron, Caithness

1891 census - Knockinnan, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 52yrs Crofter & Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland
Margaret McAngus Wife 34yrs (might be 54yrs mistranscribed) b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexander McAngus Son 22yrs Coachman (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
William McAngus Son 17yrs Shoemaker Apprentice b. Latheron, Caithness
Ann McAngus Dau 13yrs General Serv Domestic b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret McAngus Dau 11yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

And his birth:

Name:    Donald Mc Angus
Gender:    Male
Birth Date:    28 Apr 1837
Birth Place:    Loth, Sutherland, Scotland
Father:    John Mc Angus
Mother:    Janet Gunn
FHL Film Number:    990575

[mweston]

Hi Forfarian and Jenny, sorry about that:

Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54)
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Father:  James Gunn (Crofter & Fisherman)( Deceased)
Mother: Jane Gun M.S. Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donal McAngus Nephew Boulglass, Latheron Wheel

I would never had deciphered the names but I can see them now.  I looked at all the Certs I had to try and get my eye in but not to be I just couldn't see it...so many Sutherlands/Gunns.. I had no idea when I started this journey of finding the family of two cousins who were in the police force and killed while trying to arrest someone it would lead me on such a journey from Scotland to New Zealand and here in Australia... I now know why the chat was named Frustrated Sutherlands seeking Sutherlands...I hope my research helps others... many thanks again

[Forfarian]

What do you think Forfarian?

I agree.

[JenClark]

No worries at all Margaret....I love doing this sort of research, though it can feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole at times!

I'm sure your research will help someone along the line.....Sutherlands and Gunns are thick on the ground in these parts, you are bound to match with someone's line sooner or later 

None of the couples further back in your line seem to match my family yet....but all the 'frustrated Sutherlands' on this thread are probably related if you go far enough back 


Oh, and I can't help myself.....I looked into the other informant on the death certificates

It seems that the G Cormack, informant and son-in-law of Alexander Sutherland was George Cormack.

George Cormack married Jamesina Sutherland in 1887 in Latheron.

Scotland's People reference:
JAMESINA SUTHERLAND
GEORGE CORMACK
1887
038/ 20
Latheron

Be warned though, there appear to be 2 George Cormack/Jamesina Sutherland combinations in the area at that time. The other couple married in Wick in 1896, but they both show in the Latheron 1901 census return!

In 1891 Jamesina appears to be living with her aunts (her mother Jane Sutherland's sisters), which is great as it also gives you Mary's married name.

1891 census - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Head 63yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Mary Finlayson Sister 49yrs General Servant (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
George Cormack Lodger 31yrs Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Cormack Niece 25yrs Agricultural Labourer's wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Cormack Niece 2yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Cormack Niece 8mths b. Latheron, Caithness

1901 census - Cong?, Latheron, Caithness
George Cormack Head 41yrs General Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Cormack Wife 36yrs Labourer's Wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Cormack Dau 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Maggie Cormack Dau 10yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Hughina Cormack Dau 8yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Alex David Cormack Son 5yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Dachar Cormack Dau 3yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness


Good luck with sorting out your web....

Jenny

[mweston]

Hi Jenny and Forfarian,  I think I have found a connection to Alexander Sutherland's side.  I have found a Donald Sutherland b: 1821 Caithness  Mother: Catherine  Father John. He appears in the 1851 Census in Glasgow with his family... Occupation:  Policeman.  The Australian Govt do a big Recruitment of officers in U.K. and he comes over here with 100 more officers on board the Exodus in August 1855, but when they get here the agent in the UK didn't get them to sign their agreements and there is a big kerfuffle here and they make them stay on the boat till they sign their Agreements, its all about there lodgings, wages etc. which was interesting.  Donald joined the Police Force here 26th July 1855 as did his son in 1872 the whole family were high up in the police force with a grandson being a magristrate.   Evidently Catherine and John had three sons Alexander 1819, John 1821 and William, in Latheron but William passed away when he was 2 and I have only the fact that the occupation of policeman links my William to perhaps his uncle Donald... and seeing that William was born in 1854 a year before Donald came out here.. would the family have kept in touch seeing that William was living with his mother's family.. I know I'm drawing a long bow here.. but I have learnt never to discount anything.. regarding John Sutherland there are a few Chelsea Pensioner Guards  John married Catherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) on 12.3.1818 which fits in with the Catherine  formerly Henderson M.S. Sutherland on Alexander's DC... what do you think   Cheers Margaret

[JenClark]

Hey Margaret,

Is this the marriage that you are referring to?

JOHN SUTHERLAND
KATHARINE SUTHERLAND
12/03/1818
038/
10 568
Latheron

If she was indeed Catherine/Katherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) then this certainly looks promising, what does the actual church record say? Can you attach a snip of it in this thread, or e-mail it to me?

A marriage in 1818 would certainly fit with Alexander Sutherland's estimated birth in 1819.

It would be very helpful if Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland) died after 1855 and we could pin point her death certificate. I had a little look at possibilities in the area...and unfortunately there are quite a few. 

Your Catherine Sutherland's age in the 1851 census gives us an approximate birth date of 1782.

I can see in the 1851 census for Latheron Parish that there are 3 Catherine Sutherland's with a birth date of 1782 +/- 5yrs (including yours). Two are living in Achviole (including yours) and one in Latheron itself. If I look at the 1861 census there is only one Catherine Sutherland in Latheron Parish with a birth date of 1782 +/- 5yrs. This Catherine (b abt 1785) is living in Mid Clyth with her nephew David Sutherland. This could be your Catherine, but it doesn't really feel right, I feel like she would be living with Alexander if she was still living...but I could be wrong. I suspect that your Catherine died before the 1861 census (hopefully after 1855!)

There are 4 possible Catherine Sutherland's who died in Latheron Parish between 1855 and 1861, one of them shows under both the names Sutherland & Budge so we can discount her, but the others are below. I have listed what I think is most likely at the top:

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
75yrs (so born abt 1784)
1859
038/ 90
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
76yrs (so born abt 1779)
SUTHERLAND (mother's maiden name)
1855
038/ 50
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
82yrs (so born abt 1778)
MCKAY (Mother's maiden name)
1860
038/ 7
Latheron


There are also a couple of possibilities if your Catherine lived past the 1861 census:

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
78yrs (so born abt 1784)
GORDON (Mother's maiden name)
1862
038/ 21
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
78yrs (so born abt 1784)
CAMPBELL (Mother's maiden name)
1862
038/ 104
Latheron

Of course none of these may be your Catherine, if she died before 1855....but I have my fingers crossed that you will get lucky 

I too looked at the Chelsea Pensioner records, and there are few too many John Sutherland's to pin him down at this point I think 

As for the Sutherland Police connection...yes is it possible that Donald Sutherland (born 1821) could be another child of John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland)...but I wouldn't get too attached. There are a LOT of John/Catherine Sutherland couples in Latheron, one being in my own family John Sutherland/Catherine Gunn who married in 1796 in Latheron. We also have Policemen in the family. My John/Catherine Sutherland's grandsons Thomas Rutherford Sutherland (born abt 1848) and Adam Wood Sutherland (born abt 1852) were Police constables in Edinburgh.

If you could get a death certificate for the Policeman Donald Sutherland that named his parents as John Sutherland & Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland) then maybe you could confirm a connection. Unfortunately he seems to have married before 1855, so no details can be gleaned from that. Also where did you get the reference to the other suspected son William Sutherland who passed away when he was 2?

Jenny

[mweston]

Hi Jenny this is the reply I received to my message:  "Hi Margaret.....WOW.....the Sutherlands. I am finding it very difficult to find information on them. My grandfather, Frederick Donald Hercules Sutherland (1879-1957) had written down lots of dates and names after speaking to his father, John Sutherland (1847-1918) just before he died......including all the relevant transcripts from the police archives. Frederick was a stipendiary magistrate and his father John was superintendent of police. His father Donald was in the Glasgow police force from 1847 to 1855 before coming to Australia (maybe it was a transfer?). I went to the Glasgow police museum last year and they had no record of him unfortunately. The notes from John (1847 -1918) say: Alexander Sutherland, born in Sutherland died at age 85 years. His wife died at 80 years and she was born in Caithness. They had 2 children , William and John. It says John married Catherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) on 12.3.1818. Does that mean this is her 2nd marriage?. John and Catherine had 3 sons, Alexander, Donald (3.6.1820-21.7.1899) and William who died at 2 years of age.
Donald married  Janet Anderson in Latheron  Parish Church on 30th April 1841. (Iwent there last year as well.......beautiful......now a museum). They had 5 children : Elizabeth b.1843, Catherine b.1845, John b.1847, James Anderson b.1849 and Jessie b.1850. Unfortunately, Janet died around 1853 ( I can't find the death) and Catherine died at 8 years and Jessie at 2 years. Donald remarried and came to Australia with Elizabeth and John and left James in Scotland with his maternal grandparents , the Andersons but he came to Aust. at 16 and was present at the death of his father. So yes, Alexander is a brother of Donalds. Also......According to the notes: "A great aunt of Alexander Sutherland (great grandfather of John Sutherland) was a chieftainess of Clan Sutherland and her health used to be publicly toasted at the Cross in Edinburgh" (how do you verify this?) Thank you for being in touch".   I found the marriage for John and Cathrine/Katherine on the IGI.  On the shipping documents for Donald who arrived here with 100 policemen from the UK on the Exodus in 1855 he lists his parents as John and Catherine, mother living and father dead so we are looking after 1855 for Catherines death................Blimey I just got 038/50 and its her... its her can I email it to you?  Margaret