1852 Burial St Pauls Deptford Catherine VERONELLI

[01debbie]

Ok, long shot I know but I live in hope!!

I'm looking for a burial for Catherine VERONELLI (could be spelt anyway) between 1851 & 1852, St Pauls Deptford.

In 1851 Catherine VERONELLI was living at Bell Lane Deptford St Pauls.  Surname was mispelt as VERARONELY.
HO 107/1584 22

Catherine was living with husband John (Giovanni ) & their children.  From there, she vanishes.  John died in Sep 1852 address 5 Bell Lane.

 I THINK Catherine may have died after the 1851 although there is no trace of a death cert & that John remarried between 1851 & his death.

 The reason for thinking this is that I have a marriage cert for a Caroline Vearonelly (widow) in 1860.  She was way too young to be Catherine.  John (Giovanni) was the only male Veronelli (Or any variation on that) that there was, who could've been a husband.  Again, no trace of a marriage for John & Caroline.

Fingers & toes crossed 

Debbie

[PaulineJ]

 The reason for thinking this is that I have a marriage cert for a Caroline Vearonelly (widow) in 1860. 

What are the full details on this 1860 certificate?
What were ages/occupations; Whom did she marry, what was the address, who were the witnesses. (etc). We can try to prove/disprove with that info too.

Pauline
All

[01debbie]

Hi Pauline,

8th Aug 1860 in the parish church of Croydon


Marriage of Caroline VEARONELLY  age 43 Widow   residence Croydon father Thomas Endell, foreman in the dockyard.  To

James WHATMORE  29 ( Toy boy...lucky lady!!)  Bachelor  Labourer Residence Croydon Father James Whatmore Labourer

Witnesses Walter Norton Wright & Emma Rose Selby, both were living in Croydon in 1861.

In 1861, Caroline & James Whatmore were living at 4 Prospect Place Lewisham ( a lot of the Veronelli's lived in Prospect Place over the years & all stayed in Lewisham apart from a couple of wanderings to Croydon).

 Living with them was Catherine & Giovanni's daughter, Elizabeth Veronelli, listed as Elizabeth TAYLOR age 21 daughter in law.  Many of the V's, as I call them, changed the family name to TAYLOR...Giovanni was a tailor by trade. Elizabeth vanishes too after this but there are so many Elizabeth Taylors, I'd be guessing at which would be her.

So my first thoughts were that Caroline was in fact Catherine, but she's too young & her maiden name would've been Endell.  My Catherine was CROW.  I've not been able to find any previous marriages for Caroline.

I've tracked the Whatmores through to Caroline's death in 1881.  However, I just went to check my records for them in 1871 & I've only saved the second page which is RG10770...Fir St Sydenham...again, good 'V' stomping ground.  I seem to recall thought that there were two older children living with them at that stage that must have been Caroline's from an earlier marriage.   I can't seem to find them on Ancestry just now & I know they were there before!!!

Ok, I hope that hasn't confused you too much!!

Debbie

[PaulineJ]

Fir street in 1871 is folios 16-18 by the look of it.

Given that the 'correct' daughter is with the newlyweds , then I'd have to say that they could well have fibbed about her age on marriage to make it more 'respectable'.
Wouldn't be the first time.

You write that you don't have the CROW-veronelli marriage details?

Pauline

[01debbie]

Yes I have the Crow/ Veronelli details.  It was any earlier marriages for Caroline that I don't have, as in Caroline Endell.  I'll look again for the 1871 which shows the older children with the different surname.

Of course, I'm doing this between running up & downstairs to the roast which is cooking!!! 

[01debbie]

Found the 1871, I'd saved it under Robert Vearonelly, as he appears as the first head of 2 Fir St.

So there was Robert V, s/o Catherine & Giovanni, then appears James Whatmore & family in the same house.

Children of Caroline & James,

Elizabeth do (Whatmore)  daur  29  b Deptford (as was Carloine)
julian       do  Son  age 29                       do
Mary a     do  sons wife  27                     do

There were children for Julian over the next page.  I thought it had a different surname for Julian & had forgotten that Elizabeth was listed as Whatmore.

Now James' age appears to be 66 whilst Caroline is 55, which would mean he was 54 ? when he married in 1860...how can they have been that far out from 29??  I could be reading it wrong though...no, must be wrong in 1881 he's back to 44.

Ok, burning smells coming from kitchen!!! 

Debbie

[dillybert]

Hi Debbie,

It is all very odd.

Who notifies the death for John in 1852? Anyone useful?

How sure are you of "Endell" - is the writingng clear?  I thought possibly Catherine could have been a widow as a Crow when she married John, but this would make her first marriage very very early. It does all seem very unlikely though given the ages given.

What happens to John the younger (John and Catherine's son)? Have you been able to discount him as a dead husband of Caroline by 1860?

dilly

[01debbie]

Hello Dilly,

Firstly, thank you for taking an interest.  I've had many a sleepless night over this lot & it took me a couple of years to come up with the theory that Catherine could've died between 1851-52 & that Giovanni remarried before his death...seemed logical at the time 

Ok, here's a breakdown;

1778ish Giovanni Basilio VERONELLI born SOMEWHERE  in Italy

1798 Marriage of Basilio VERONELLY (has to be him) to Ann Maria Barry at St Sepulchre London (spelling taken from IGI)

1804 Baptism of Catherine CROW St Nicholas, Deptford d/o Thos & Susannah CROW

1807 Baptism of Maria VERONELLY St. Andrews Holborn d/o John VERONELLY & Maria...no further trace of baby Maria or wife Ann/Maria

1829  Jovane Basilio Veronelly = Catherine Crow St. Pauls Deptford.

Known Children;
 1830 Sarah Ann (my Gx2 Grandmother)  bapt St Pauls Deptford 1853 marries William Joseph Abbott.  Couple tracked to her death in 1919

1833  John bapt St. Pauls Deptford 1860 marries Elizabeth Dunmore after the birth of their first 2 children.  Have him tracked until his death in 1917...all apart from the 1861 when he SHOULD'VE been at Annerley Vale, but no trace. 1871 he was VARNELLY from then on TAYLOR but always registered children as V's

c1835 Elizabeth/ Betsey arrives  no Bapt or record ever found.  Tracked to 1871 with the Whatmore's as per previous message.

c1836  William no bapt ever found or birth entry 1864 marries Mary Ann  Bland tracked through to his death in 1922...he also used the name TAYLOR from time to time.

1840 Robert VEARONELLY arrives & he's the only one to have kept that variation of spelling constant.  Marries Rebecca HANDS 1862 & tracked through to his death in 1906.

1860  Caroline VEARONELLY pops up as a widow & marries James Whatmore.

I'm a 100% positive on ENDELL.

Giovanni's/John's death cert reads he died at 5 Bell Lane St Pauls age 74 (that's how I worked out a year of birth)  Now a SArah Longman was the informant & it states she was present at the death.  Her address was 10 Rosetta St, Limehouse...I think it says Limehouse.

So there we have it...the skin & bones version anyway!!  I've been researching this lot for around 5 yrs & have tracked a lot of the children too.  I've been doing this with a lovely lady also related to the same line & between us we've unpicked many a riddle with our V's.

But if I could just find out what happened to Catherine GGGRRR....

Well, I suppose it wouldn't be so much fun if it just fell in my lap, would it? 

Debbie

[dillybert]

Hi debbie,

This is possibly just a co-incidence or irrelevant and doesn't really get us much further, but anyway....

Sarah Longman is at 10 Rosetta St in Limehouse in 1851 census. She's on her own, aged 53, born Deptford. (HO 107/1554 Folio 201 Page 41). She's still around in 1871 with an unmarried daughter Sarah born 1843.

So tracking back, in 1841, I think she's in Limehouse with her husband William Longman. (H0107 Piece 701 Book 6 Folio 11 Page 14)

There is a marriage for a William Longman in Whitechapel 1840 q4 (2 200) and the only Sarah listed is a Sarah Crow. So, if these do tie up, Sarah could be Catherine's sister.

Hmm...